What Speakers for 4000 Square Foot Exotic Auto and Motorcycle Warehouse

[Loudandproud]

Hello All,

I am in the process of renovating a 4000 square foot warehouse space to work on and store custom automobiles and motorcycles. The space is 40' X 100' with 25 foot ceilings. Wood ceiling, drywall walls and concrete floor. It has a multiple lifts, equipment, a bar/lounge area with flatscreen TV, and stripper pole and a disco ball - 100% MAN!

I'm ready to put an audio system in the space, but have no clue as to what to buy and where to place things. Like how much power will I need and how many speakers? Do I buy four of them or less and where do I place them (in the corners up high or on the floor)? I like my tunes LOUD!

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

LOUDANDPROUD
Seattle, Washington

[brendy]

Look towards pro audio/commercial sound kind of stuff.Like what you see at a concert.Home audio will not be suitable for your needs.

[Loudandproud]

Brendy,

Wow, thank you for your quick reply. Where do I go for Pro Audio/Commerical Sound speakers and equipment?

LoudandProud

[stratman]

Maybe get yourself "pro-sound" gear, a couple of huge speakers (like the ones DJs use), a Crown amp ( they're bullet proof) --if you shop around in the music supply sites you can find them cheap. You'll need a preamp or a PA board, CD player and if you like a tuner. Remember this is not "audiophile" its more like sound reinforcement, but if you want it loud:D ..... Put the 2 speakers in the back of the warehouse facing forward, blast away!!. There you have it: a small soundstage for loud music. Some of those Crowns can push over 1000 watts, so it depends how loud you want it.

Sometimes this gear is sold in packages, go online check out a few sites, talk to them, they can set up package deals which even include the cabling.

[stratman]

I guess I was late posting! Pro gear the way to go!

[WorldLeader]

I would recommend JBL for pro-audio, here is a nicer, albeit more PA and live music oriented speaker: JBL EON G2 (http://www.************.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?Partnumber=245-285&raid=43&rak=245-285)

Here's a site full of goodies and audio stuff: http://www.************.com/

As for an amplifier I would recommend the BEHRINGER EP1500 (http://www.************.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=248-745). This is a pro-sound amp with plenty of juice, plus it is rock solid. I've never experienced Crown amps before so I can't compare them. If you want 1200 watts/channel, check out the EP2500, it is only about $50 more than the one I linked above.

You can use any receiver with pre-outs to hook up to the amp.

HTH and good luck! :D


-World Leader

[stratman]

Try Sam Ash music....I've bought a lot of music and sound equipment from them over the years, thy're reputable and have a huge selection.

[Loudandproud]

I'm trackin' with ya.

Stratman: Is Pro Gear the name of the manufacterer? If so, then what size speaker (big or small or it doesn't matter) and what wattage?

Worldleader: The forum blanked out the website you listed. Maybe you can give it to me without the www and the .com part?

This is great information. Thanks all.

[Loudandproud]

Question: Someone suggested two speakers in the back. Why only two. Wouldn't four (putting one in each corner) fill this huge room better?

Also, where do I locate the speakers, up high or on the floor?

Thanks.

[Clint DeBoer]

I'd go with a total of 12-18 speakers to fill the area. No subs. Drop them down on poles to cover the area and go for ones that are meant to cover a large area - you don't want directional speakers. The key here is sound coverage and getting everything firing at once. You also want more speakers rather than less (louder) ones because you don't want to hear sound from the speaker on the other end of the room - which would be about 100ms delayed from the speaker over your head.

With 100x40 and a warehouse space you may need to acoustically coat the ceiling and provide some (at least minimal) diffusion or treatment of the side walls to avoid everything sounding like an echo-chamber. Having more speakers will help as well.

Amplification will be multi-channel amps fed from whatever source you'd like (inexpensive receiver is probably best since it has radio as well as ability to handle XM, iPod, CD, etc)

Don't be afraid to involve a local installer in the process as it could be well worth the money and save you headaches in the future.

[Xsound]

Clint's right, local installer is usually the better option. If there isn't someone who can do what you want, try these guys, they have done sound installations all over the US. They can get just about any brand of pro stuff. Just did a big thing for a BYU extension in Hawaii (didn't even know they had one).


info@mcsoundlightandvideo.com

[Mark Seaton]

Don't be afraid to involve a local installer in the process as it could be well worth the money and save you headaches in the future.

It sounds like you are talking about a retail/showroom for business use (even if a fun business ;) ). First and foremost, hire a professional to hang anything that goes overhead. There are both proper and extremely dangerous ways to hang heavy objects overhead, and you don't want to be liable for them dropping on a showpeice or a person! Many nightclubs and churches are good examples of VERY dangerous rigging practices.

One question is if you have any sort of budget constraints in mind? If you work on custom cars & bikes, building a subwoofer might be right up your alley. If you want to search out the LAB Sub project on ProSound Web's Live Audio Board, you will find somewhat complicated, but doable plans for a subwoofer that you simply won't beat without spending a good bit more. Two of these placed properly or even one in a corner will probably be enough to piss off the neighboors, even if you have cinder block walls. You could even build them into the platform for the stripper pole. :cool:

With the speakers, the JBL Eon and maybe the powered Mackie stuff isn't bad, but if you can find a place to buy them, I would check out the Yorkville U15 Unity products, and maybe even the matching horn subwoofer if you want to purchase a sub that's ready to go.

The layout will dictate how many speakers you need, and there are reasons and strengths to goign with 2-6 speakers or 6-12 as Clint suggests, although I wouldn't think of not including a subwoofer based on your description. While I doubt budget will allow, if you can splurge for a Danley Sound Labs TH-115, one would probably do nicely with a decent amp driving it (>1,000W).

Note that some speakers are much more directional than others (for example the U15s) which can be very helpful, depending on your intention. You might want to have one area that is where the sound primarily radiates from or is anchored, or you might just want a more even sound distributed around with smaller speakers and a robust subwoofer.

[B5I8]

These guys make some pretty awesome stuff.

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/

Get some SH-100B's (http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/DANLEY_sh100b.htm) and a DTS-20 (http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/DANLEY_dts20.htm).

[stratman]

Loudand proud,

Pro-sound is just a moniker for equipment used by "pros" or for professional applications where usually aesthetics are not as important as endurance (reliability)

The bottom line: What's your budget?.....my recommendation is based on a modest budget, hence 2 speakers, placed on either corner, ceiling height, yes 4 would be great, like I said this is mainly for working around your cars and bikes, you're not doing "serious" listening....you're probably jamming, right? We used to rehearse in a warehouse pretty much with the same dimensions as yours, I ran my Marshall amp (for my guitar) through a Tascam board (that amp is "only" is 100 watts) and it was plenty loud.

If you have an ample budget you might consider what Clint DeBoer posted.

[highfihoney]

I like my tunes LOUD!

For loud music in large spaces such as yours its hard to beat a pair of klipsch cornwalls,they are very efficient at 101db with a 100 watt rms & a 1,000 watt peak,the thing that makes the cornwall so great for seriously loud music is that as long as the power stays clean(no clipping) they can take every bit of 1,000 watts for extended periods.

While looking for a link to a pair of cornwalls for you to see i ran across an ad from a guy selling a pair that i was the original owner of,i ran gobs of power through these puppies without a burp & they seriously rock,you should be able to find a cheaper priced pair though,the going rate for a pair in that condition is about $600.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1165802644

I gotta agree with the others on amplification by using professional amps instead of audiophile or mass market amps,crown would be my choice to match up with cornwalls,the crown ce-400 will be able to easily drive the crap out of cornwalls at 600 wpc.

http://cgi.ebay.com/CROWN-CE-4000-AMPLIFIER-GOOD-CONDITION_W0QQitemZ170043711245QQihZ007QQcategoryZ 64451QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

You could run this amp/speaker combo direct from a cd player but all you'd have is volume control but by adding a preamp/tuner combo you get a tuner(radio) & the ability to use tone controls which is very handy.

http://cgi.ebay.com/CARVER-Preamplifier-Tuner-CT-24_W0QQitemZ250044473467QQihZ015QQcategoryZ71565QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

No need for pro instalation either just buy some simple cables from a guitar shop,some speaker wire & your all done,rough system cost is $1,200 to $1,500.

[RLA]

Don't be afraid to involve a local installer in the process as it could be well worth the money and save you headaches in the future.

This is good advice that will save you time, money and grief.
I started my A/V career 19 years ago installing Pro A/V systems. Pro speaker’s dispersion characteristics and frequency response vary and they are designed for specific installation criteria. The best thing you can do is at least hire a Pro A/V consultant that can provide you with calculations, installation blueprint and gear list. The actual installation is not that difficult but load ratings and capture cables must be considered for anything mounted or flying overhead. Liability not withstanding consider the consequences if something falls on one of your clients.

[Loudandproud]

Lots of advice here guys (some of which is counteracting each other), so I think everyone would agree that a professional in some capacity may be the first step. I will tell him (or her - hopefully she's cute) that I'm leaning toward the following gear:

Speakers:

a. Klipsch cornwalls
b. JBL EON G2 with EON SUB
c. JBL JRX115i Suspension 15" 2 Way Passive PA Cabinet
d. JBL JRX125 Dual 15" 2 Way Passive PA Cabinet
e. JBL MPro MP215 15" Passive PA Cabinet

Power Amp:

a. Crown (model?)
b. Behringer EP1500 or EP 2500

Pre-amp:

a. CARVER Preamplifier/Tuner CT-24

Question #1 - Go ahead and recommend your speaker/power amp/pre-amp
combination.

Question #2 - What is the difference between the JBLs listed above?

Question #3 - Is it ok to hang the speakers off the floor and if so, then how high? The ceilings are 25 feet high. So do I put them half way up, or ok to put them all the way up?

Thanks again to all. I started this string not knowing ****, now I'm about to start giving my own advice, lol.

LOUD&PROUD

[Loudandproud]

Guys,

Forgot to ask about the SUBWOOFER.

What does everyone recommend?

Powered or unpowered (see, this is the kind of question I would never have been able to ask just a few short days ago)?

Thanks.

LOUD&PROUD

[jaxvon]

I would recommmend that you NOT go for the JBL EON speakers. I have used them in the past and was basically disgusted with the sound. They have audible noise without a signal present. They have an uneven frequency response with abysmal sound in the midrange. To but it bluntly, they suck. Royally.

As for all of these suggestions going around, no one has really asked what your overall goal is for sound. So I will now: What *is* your overall goal? Do you want even sound all over your shop that has the ability to be anywhere from background music to rocking? Or do you want to have a stereo system in one part so other parts of the shop are quieter? To achieve even sound over the whole place, you'll need ceiling mounted speakers, something that would make hiring an installer a good idea. If you're just setting up a stereo in one section of the place, then you don't really need an installer.

[Loudandproud]

Jaxvon,

Good point. I guess I never define the overall goal.

The area is divided into three sections. A bar/tv section (1/4 of the space), a storage section (1/2 the space), and a working section (remaining 1/4)

I would like the best (cleanest sound) around the working section, with overflow sound reaching all other areas.

Ideally, I would want the flatscreen (lcd or plasma) tv to be tied into the speakers so I could play the tv through the speakers for football or Tyson fights (if that is even possible).

Thansk for drilling down on the details.

LOUD&PROUD

[jaxvon]

Now we're getting somewhere!

I have a few more questions to help clarify the situation:

Is the space divided into three rooms, or just three areas that are all in the main space?

Do you have any sort of budget laid out for the A/V stuff? If nothing specific, a price ceiling?


If you have 3 rooms that are separated by drywall and a large budget, the sky is the limit with this system. For a basic setup, you could probably do it yourself. But if you wanted something that will make jaws drop (like the cars in the next room ;) ), you should look at contacting an installer. If you went all out, you could have everything fully automated: lights, sound, TV, projector (hey, this would be awesome for watching the game in HD), and have it all controlled with a touchscreen remote. If you went for the automated system, you could set up different zones where you could have different audio and/or video feeds. Send the same music everywhere, or something different in every zone. Same with video. The room situation also affords you the ability to get good, deep, and strong bass with a reasonably priced subwoofer.

On a side note, if you're still in the construction phase, I would build a double-thick wall with 2x6 studs, double drywall, and mineral wool fill between the shop and the bar. This will ensure, along with a thick storm door, that the shop noise does not infect the party next door.

[Rob Babcock]

Leave the stripper pole, just in case.;)

[maytagman]

I have much more pro audio experience than I do HT experience. I used to rent rigs before I Had the cabbage to buy my own, so I've used quite a few brands and model levels. So far I've had the pleasure of using... JBL EON 10's, Mackie active 15's, These giant EV passive injection molded cabinets (really radical looking, easy to pick out of their model lineup im sure) some Pioneer cabs, and some JBL 15's from the M-Pro lineup. God knows what other ones have passed through my hands.

I'd definetly say pro audio is the way to go if you want to fill that space. If you want a passive system with an amp rack, I'd say go with the offerings from JBL or EV, both are excellent products and you'll struggle between the two. Crown, QSC, Crest, Carvin amps are all built like rocks. If you want an active solution, the Mackies hands down. You will see all the pros and live acts using them, and while thats not a reason to buy them alone, the sound is. The components are a bit more expensive but the ruggedness and gigability is unparalleled. As far as acoustics and how many/where speakers should go, that's really up to you and your room's shape.

Here'd be my humble suggestion. Most music stores which stock pro audio around you probably rent PA rigs out. I would HIGHLY suggest sampling a few of these systems, but keeping in mind they've probably been used and abused. Even so, all the cabs I used from the above companies were too, and sounded great. Just beware of blown crossover sections or crushed tweeters before you make a last choice. A full rental rig shouldnt cost more than $200 for the day. As for retailers you pretty much owe yourself to visit the 'axis of evil' I call it, Music123.com, Americanmusical.com, Musiciansfriend.com, Zzounds/harmonycentral. Also, 123dj.com often has blowout or package deals that are decent to ridiculous in savings. Check your local boys too, and if you really enjoy your rental rig, offer to buy it. Quite often they'll let you.

I'm no expert but these are the things I've learned after blowing way too much money the first time skimping on components!

[Loudandproud]

Wow, lots of input, I'll try to answer all:

JAXVON - No, its not three separate rooms, Its one room (50' X 80') divided into three sections. I attached a rough drawing of the space.

The yellow highlighted area is where all the restoration work will occur. It will have the car/motorcycle lift(s), benches, sinks, part sandblaster, air compressor, rack shelving etc. It will also have a concrete painted floor.

The green highlighted area is where the bar, plasma tv (or projection - not sure), seating, and yes, BABCOCK, the stripper platform and pole - unless you find that offense. That area will be carpeted.

The balance of the space will be for car/motorcycle storage. That area will be carpeted as well.

I would like the best (cleanest) sound in the yellow work area. I would like speakers for the big tv/projection/bar area and finally speakers to fill the car/motorcycle storage area. I would like all the speakers to be able to play together for music or play together off the TV.

Hope that helps. I do really appreciate you help. I did meet with a "professional" installer, but all they wanted to do was sell me Paradigm speakers and a $10,000 projecter (I guess they saw the Ferraris and Vincent motorcycles and assumed I was a dumb ****).

Thanks to all.

LOUD&PROUD
Seattle, WA, USA

[Loudandproud]

Tried to upload the drawing but I am limited to 100KB and even if I compress the file I'm at 193KB.

My e-mail address is (taken out as advised - good point GREENJELLY)

I can e-mail you the drawing if it helps.

Thanks to all.

LOUD&PROUD
Seattle, WA, USA

[B5I8]

Did you take a look at Danley Sound Labs (http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/) for speakers? They really do make some of the best.

[Loudandproud]

Yes, I've looked at the Danley Sound labs stuff. Quite nice.

Someone suggested the Mackie S408 Precision Speakers. They stated that this speaker fills an area well because of it's shape (curved). They stated that most box speakers are great when you are directly in front of them, but the sound quality falls off quickly as you move to the sides.

Any truth in that?

LOUD&PROUD
Seattle, WA, USA

[Johnd]

They stated that most box speakers are great when you are directly in front of them, but the sound quality falls off quickly as you move to the sides.

Any truth in that?


Yes. It's call off-axis response (which varies speaker to speaker). I think you will be hard-pressed to "fill" the space with full frequency (accurate) sound without many (strategically-placed) speakers as already suggested. Cheers.

[GreenJelly]

Im sorry to say this, but I would recommend a mixture of speakers depending on your needs.

Simply put, you dont want a wall of sound in a store or warehouse. They generally are not good for this sort of applications.

You need to state more from what you expect from the system. Do you want to have concert sound with loud single source, or do you want to fill the place up with music that isnt so loud that you cant talk to your customers.

Then comes cost, how much are you willing to spend?

We are jumping to to many conclusions, and need to help you with a system that will fill the store/warehouse with the type of music and sound you want.

From what I read you need a set of inwall speakers (eaks, I cant beleive I just said that)... these go in the areas where you want to be able to talk in, and are in the large areas that are not ment for viewing your projection and strippers:)

Then you need a pair of high end speakers, and yes, I would say you need big subs with thoose speakers. Of course we are NOT talking about your adverage home audio system, though some components can come from this market.

Basically I am talking about a intercom system, except one that pushes out good sound, instead of the type your boss pages you on right before you get fired.

The best solutions will come from your local highend music store. Tell them that you need a setup, bring them down to your work.. show them what and where things are, and what you need. Talk about price, and installation. Try to do the installation yourself, and avoid the high end speaker wire talk. Tell them to just put some nice wire in there, something on the order of a LAMP CORD!

Other then that, have them do their recommendations. Get a second opinion, and buy the equipment. If you want to install it yourself, feel free too. Its not rocket science, though they will make it out to be. They do have experiance though, so if your on rocky ground go with the instillation.

Expect to spend some money... Dont cheap out, but dont go way overboard. Make sure the system will work and sound GREAT at low levels. so that you can talk to your customers, yet hear every vibration of every note of the instruments.

Mike

PS, a single pair of speakers is NOT going to meet your needs, and a pair of speakers for High Quality speakers (non-monitors) should NOT cost you more then 3-4K. You just wont have people in your place that can tell the difference. Hell most of them are already hard of hearing because they been riding motorcycles.

In wall speakers stink generally, so dont expect amazing sound. But they are great for display rooms, offices, etc. You just dont need wires and speakers sitting around. On top of it, they will get the ship kicked out of them when you do work. I can just see one of your mechanics squezing behind a pair of Thiels 3.5s, and tripping on the wire... thus tipping over the speaker or ripping out the cords/connections. Then comes the tools hes holding, which will tear out the crap of them.

Another option would be to put speakers in the corners of these rooms. I love Thiels, and I feel they work GREAT in large spaces. The 3.5 series would be perfect for putting in corners, and they will give you EVERYTHING you would ever need. You dont want a sub in the display rooms, cause it may cause all the glass and parts to rattle... not good...

As far as a party room, then you need to go monitors, or again high end speakers. But here you DEFINATELY need BASS... And lots of it... When it Thumps, your Ferrari in the next room should have its alarm triggered.

Of course, nothing would look as good as these next to a Ferrari
http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/label/Model%20Nautilus

Mike

[Nick250]

(I guess they saw the Ferraris and Vincent motorcycles and assumed I was a dumb ****).
Thanks to all.
LOUD&PROUD
Seattle, WA, USA

Vincent motorcycles? You have my attention. A Black Lightening or Black Shadow perhaps? All collectors have a Ferrari or two, but Vincent motorcycles, my guess is not that many. And a guess is what it is. And add one of the original Ford GT40's to my list as well and I think I could be happy with just those two in my collection. End of thread hijack.

Nick

[jaxvon]

Tried to upload the drawing but I am limited to 100KB and even if I compress the file I'm at 193KB.

My e-mail address is edit

I can e-mail you the drawing if it helps.

Thanks to all.

LOUD&PROUD
Seattle, WA, USA

The easiest way to share photos is with a free account on a site like Flickr (www.flickr.com), Photobucket (www.photobucket.com), or WebShots (www.webshots.com). You can upload your photo to there and then past a link to it here. If you want, you can post the url of the photo between IMG tags and it will appear in the body of your post.

In a way, it saddens me that you don't have three separate rooms (I was getting all sorts of evil ideas), but now at least the rest of us have a better idea of what you're working with. I'll make reccommendations in another post when I have more time.

[GreenJelly]

In regards to posting your email. Let me give you a hint...

DONT POST YOUR EMAIL ON PUBLIC FORUMS!

Now your going to get LOTS of SPAM

instead post your email like this Imnotgoingtogetspam-<(at)>-poopers.com

that way people can take out the -<(at)>- and email you, but the spam bots wont recognize it as a email.

Mike

[Loudandproud]

http://thumb16.webshots.net/t/57/457/9/52/17/2809952170098907256tvhHUE_th.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/album/555357035xCSpsn)

[Loudandproud]

JAXVON,

Can you remove my e-mail address in the quote section of your last response? I deleted it from my response, however, I can't edit your responses.

Someone stated that I should not provide my e-mail in a forum, and I guess I understand that concern.

Thanks.

LOUD&PROUD
Seattle, WA, USA

[GreenJelly]

Just a helpfull hint from a net nerd like myself.

If you havent done so already... Create two accounts... One for use on the internet, and one for all your clients, family and friends. Many websites that you register will sell thoose lists to spammers. When the spam gets heavy, you just switch your public account:)

Never post your email on a website, unless you are willing to deal with spam. Most websites have feedback forms that you fill out. So when you hit a contact us, instead of getting a email, you get a Form that you fill out. I build computer information systems, so its my job, and my personal passion to know this stuff. When you registered for this site, they had a messy image with letters and numbers that you were suppose to fill out with what it says. Thats to stop people from auto filling out the applications and either spamming the forums, or PM all the people on the site.


Mike