Axiom and Ascend???

[newtoitall]

HI folks,

I am currently trialing the axiom M22v2s and the Ascend 340SEs.
I am a bit confused about the perseptions of these speakers. I have read so many reviews about the axioms being forward or bright or even in your face, but compared to the Acsends I find the Axioms to be very layed back.
I am using a Yamaha RXV 2600 and I have compinsated for the volume differances.
Has anyone else compared these speakers and if so did they find the same results?
Thanks,
Frank

[billy p]

I myself have not heard either. I can tell you that most people on the forum push both these products probably for good reason. As you have already stated about the axioms and from what I've read on the forum about the ascends you would think it's no contest:confused:. Ascends all the way!! I think I'm fairly subjective and from your post I can tell you are too. Let your ears decide

[Gatorchong]

I can see the Axiom's sounding laid back compared to that new Seas tweeter Ascend is using now. One thing to mention, Axiom hasn't updated their design in as long as I can remember. Ascend is now using some pretty high end parts.

[Sheep]

Form what I've read, they each have 1 strength the other doesn't.

Ascends: All out accuracy.

Axiom: Looks.

What do you want?

SheepStar

[silversurfer]

in searching the past on all the forums, it is the older CBM-170 and the M22 that were compared most often to each other, and more recently the 340 has sometimes been compared to the M60. Your perceptions do seem to be different.

These were the classic versions of the Ascends, not the newer SE's. I could not find anything comparing the SE's with any Axioms.

My understanding is the SE is a more refined than the classics.

from the specs, the 340SE plays much deeper than the M22. How do you have the speakers setup? Sub? How are you compensating for volume differences? Are you using any equalization?

Like billy says, let your ears decide. That's all that really matters.

[newtoitall]

I have the speakers set up A and B side of the receiver. I used a cd with pink noise to volume match and when listening I used pure direct so I assume no equalization.
I understand the Axiom 22s are not a fair match for the Ascends but I can't figure out why a speaker that is considered fairly bright can seem to me so layed back. If the axioms are bright does that make the Ascends overly so?:confused:

This is the first time I have trialed speakers in my home and from all the reading I've done I expected different results. I am looking for a fairly detailed speaker because I do a lot of listening to Acoustic music, especially Guitar.

Thanks,
Frank

[littleb]

Before I purchased my Axioms, I tried out some B&M speakers which just didn't seem to cut the cake for me. After I pulled the trigger, as they say, one of the first things that I noticed was that the tweeters on most of the store speakers were exceedingly bright, compared to the M22s, in my opinion. I don't want to get into the I don't like that speaker vs this speaker debate. I'll just say that if you hear a speaker you like better than the others you've heard, it's probably a good buy for you. I haven't heard any Ascends, but have considered them in the past, mostly due to the rave reviews. I never ordered them, since the Axioms I have are the best budget speaker I've heard so far, and I keep reasoning that the differences between these are probably slight rather than large. Sheep will probably jump all over me for this, but I think Axioms are a very good speaker. I've heard a few other speaker brands I like, but they aren't different enough for me to change brands.

[newtoitall]

I've been giving these 2 a work out all weekend and i'm still scratching my head:)
I am still new to this stuff and am trying to teach myself what to listen for in a good speaker.

The Axioms have a very pleasing midrange especially with vocals, they sound good with any acoustic guitar stuff I have played but the mid bass down is nonexistant.When not in pure direct my STF2 takes over and seems to blend well which makes the Axioms harder to decide against, Overall they seem to be a very nice speaker.

The Ascends are another story, their high end is amazing, as so many have put it when trying new speakers ( I hear things I have never heard before on some of my music ) . The bass out of two 6.5 woofers is also very respectable, very solid and pretty low, they really seem to fill my room well, not that that is a big feat at only 12x13x9, but there seemed to be a lot more sound or fullness to them. The only drawback for me is that they seem to lack the midrange that the Axioms have, either the highs and lows are overpowering the mids or it is not there, I am not sure because like I said before I am new to this.

Thanks for any help,
Frank

[Nick250]

While I can't tell which way to go, I would suggest you make your choice based on listening with the STF active. Make sure your setup properly with the speakers set to small and the cross over set to 80Hz on the receiver and the cross over disabled (or turn to the highest setting) on the sub. Also if possible, make sure the speakers are level matched. You may already have done all this, but just checking.

Nick

[newtoitall]

Hey Nick,

All that you suggested was already done and I am trying both with the sub active at times and with the receiver in pure direct at other times. I am just trying to get an idea of how these compare in the mid to upper end.
I honestly thought someone here would have or at least tried the 340SEs just to see if my opinion of them is close to theirs. I really do find them bright but my ears are not as experianced as most here.

Thanks
Frank

[Tex-amp]

I've heard the M22 and didn't think it is as bright as it's reputation. I did think it had poor control over the tops of the highs.

I think you need to call or e-mail Ascend and have them help you troubleshoot. Bright highs and a recessed mid-range just aren't normal for Ascend. Maybe UPS dropped them hard along the way and messed up the crossover.

[newtoitall]

Thanks Tex,
Maybe I'll give that a try but the box had absolutly no damage at all and I can't see not being able to tell if they were dropped or banged around.

Frank

[Tex-amp]

I had a box with no external damage but yet had been dropped hard enough to shear the magnets off the drivers.

It could just be a faulty crossover or tweeter to begin with and not shipping induced. Have you tried listening to just 1 speaker at a time to see if both speakers sound the same? A mono source would be ideal.

[davef]

Hi Frank,

I would be happy to try and assist you but I am not too sure I fully understand what you are hearing.

Here you state:

I have read so many reviews about the axioms being forward or bright or even in your face, but compared to the Acsends I find the Axioms to be very layed back.

Then here you state:

The only drawback for me is that they seem to lack the midrange that the Axioms have, either the highs and lows are overpowering the mids or it is not there, I am not sure because like I said before I am new to this.


In audio terms, this is a contradiction. Laid back typically means that the mids are subdued and midrange sounds (like vocals) seem to come from behind the speakers (recessed). Forward means these same sounds seem to be more upfront, placed in front of the speakers.

Are you saying that you are hearing a more prominent midrange from the M22?

I just want to make sure I fully understand what you are hearing before I make any suggestions.

Also, can you attach a picture of the setup? Setup is very important when comparing one speaker to another, are they in the same position?

In addition, from your description it might be possible that you have the speakers wired out-of-phase. Please double check that you have the speaker cable on all the speakers going from positive to positive and negative to negative.

Thanks in advance!

[newtoitall]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for getting back to me, I asumed a personal e-mail but this will do fine.

Just to be sure I double checked my wiring and the speakers are all in phase.

I am not completly familiar with all the terms that are used to describe a sound, so please forgive me if I misled you with the wrong terms.

I find the Axioms high end to be smoother?? and the midrange to be a little more audible than in the Ascends, actually I don't find there is enough high end in the Axioms.

With the Ascends the treble is very high especially with female voices like Diana Krall, Patricia Barber and Sarah McLachlan.The SSSs are to my ears to hissy???
The bass is definitely there as well, it just seems that there is something missing in the middle that I hear in the Axioms.
I wish I could explain better.

Thanks for listening,
Frank

[KC23]

What is the cost difference? Seems they are close enough to let that decide for you.

I have M60ti axioms. You bring up what I like about my axioms. Balance between highs, mids and lows. It seems you can find stuff with better highs and/or lows, but to find one that has better balance than axiom ... that is the trick.

[davef]

Hi Frank,

I think you have done a good job describing what you are hearing.

It has been a while since I listened to the M22 but based on lots of feedback, I am a bit surprised at what you describe.

If I may ask, what receiver are you using? How high off the ground are the 340 SE?

Also, please send me an email with the serial numbers off of the speakers -- I want to check the response curves.

Regardless, spend some quality time with both speakers, I would say at least 25 hours or more dedicated to each. Try to avoid constant switching back and forth -- perhaps dedicate 1 week of listening only to the 340 SE and another week dedicated to the Axioms. Allow yourself to become familiar with both speakers (back and forth comparisons can really throw off your frame of reference). This will allow you to better understand what type of sound you prefer.

Also, please remove the grilles on the 340 SE and visually inspect the components for any sign of damage. Do you know if Canadian customs performed an inspection on the speakers?

Please send me that email when you have the time...

Take care!

[Nick250]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for getting back to me, I asumed a personal e-mail but this will do fine.

Just to be sure I double checked my wiring and the speakers are all in phase.

I am not completly familiar with all the terms that are used to describe a sound, so please forgive me if I misled you with the wrong terms.

I find the Axioms high end to be smoother?? and the midrange to be a little more audible than in the Ascends, actually I don't find there is enough high end in the Axioms.

With the Ascends the treble is very high especially with female voices like Diana Krall, Patricia Barber and Sarah McLachlan.The SSSs are to my ears to hissy???
The bass is definitely there as well, it just seems that there is something missing in the middle that I hear in the Axioms.
I wish I could explain better.

Thanks for listening,
Frank

Toeing the speaker in or out a few degrees can have an audible impact on the highs. Toe in more bright, toe out less bright. Another variable to bear in mind.

Nick

[newtoitall]

Nick,
I tried toeing in and back out, a little differance but not much.

Dave,
The serial #s are xxxxxxxxx and xx and I have been listening with the grills off, I havent noticed any damage.

I have the Ascends a little high at 39 inches to the tweeter and the Axioms are lower to bring the tweeters to the same level as the Ascends. This is about 5 inches above ear level in the listening position.

I am using a Yamaha RXV 2500 that I borrowed the local shop until they get a 2600 in, but from what others have said here the 2500 should do me fine.

I am going to continue listening and see what happens.

Thanks,
Frank

[silversurfer]

Nick,
I tried toeing in and back out, a little differance but not much.

Dave,
The serial #s are 93502183 and 4 and I have been listening with the grills off, I havent noticed any damage.

I have the Ascends a little high at 39 inches to the tweeter and the Axioms are lower to bring the tweeters to the same level as the Ascends. This is about 5 inches above ear level in the listening position.

I am using a Yamaha RXV 2500 that I borrowed the local shop until they get a 2600 in, but from what others have said here the 2500 should do me fine.

I am going to continue listening and see what happens.

Thanks,
Frank
Do you have the Yamaha's EQ system turned off? The Ascends are also bi-wireable, do you still have the jumpers between the sets of terminals in place?

[newtoitall]

silversurfer,

When I am running pure direct I asumed the EQ system was off.
The bridges for the terminals on the Ascends are still in place. I am not sure if the Yamaha 2500 can output sides A and B at the same time, in the manual it states in Canada, Sides A and B cannot be run at the same time. This is why I haven't tried running them in that configuration.

Thanks
Frank

[davef]

Hi Frank,

I checked the response curves for your speakers and they are correct.

I really wish I was there to see and hear what you are experiencing. Our loudspeakers are highly regarded for their midrange response.

How exactly are you comparing the speakers? Am I correct in assuming you have 1 set of speakers on the A outputs and another on the B outputs and you are then switching back and forth between them?

Which speakers are positioned inside and which on the outside? A digital picture of the setup would *really* help me out.

Might I also suggest that you swap the position of the speakers and swap which speakers are on the A-channel with those that are on the B-channel? It is not safe to assume that the receivers A-outputs are perfectly paralleled with the B-outputs (thus producing the exact same signal)

You should not be "missing something in the middle" with the 340 SE as you stated -- this would be perhaps the first comment of this kind :rolleyes:

Do you have access to an SPL meter? I would be very curious to see the in-room response of both sets of speakers.

In addition, from reading Yamaha literature, I am not sure that pure direct mode bypasses YPAO. From my understanding, pure direct mode only bypasses dsp processing (yamaha soundfields) on the input signal (which is still confusing since you can use pure direct mode on a PCM signal) Please go into the receiver's configuration menu and turn YPAO to OFF. This will really cause problems since it is your friend's receiver and he probably set YPAO up in his room with completely different loudspeakers.

Have fun!

[Clint DeBoer]

Pure Direct bypasses all bass management and YPAO.

[davef]

Thanks Clint...

I was not able to conclude that from any of the literature and I don't have access to the receiver to test it.

[newtoitall]

Hello again folks,

[newtoitall]

Please don't ask me what I did to post the previoud because I don't know:rolleyes:

Dave F,
I did as you asked and tried switching As for Bs with the Ascends and there didn't seem to be any difference to my ears. I also switched inside to outside with the same results, maybe not quite as bright when inside as opposed to out but still not comfortable for me.
I apologise for causing so much hastle and I do appreciate your efforts, but I can't seem to get comfortable with the Ascends, it may be my room acoustics or eguipment or most likely just my ears:). I am happy to have had the chance to try your product and I truly do wish I was able to find an answer to what I was hearing especially since it cost me $160.00 more even after the exchange rate just to get them across the border to Canada:( (There has to be a better way of doing such things).
Everyone hears differently we are told and I now believe it to be very true.

The Axiom M22s are another very respected and well built speaker that I tried
but could not get what I wanted to hear out of. They have a wonderful midrange but to my ears there wasn't enough high end, and they didn't fill my room as well as I had hoped. They are a fairly small speaker and to me they sounded a little small.

Both of these speaker companies should be very proud of what they have accomplished as there are many very happy customers out there who will attest to their quality, both sound and build.:)

You folks may think I have ears like radar dishes or some other malformity??
that messes with what I hear but that's what I hear:D

I am now trying the Energy RC-LCRs and so far they have what my ears like.

Thanks all,
Frank

[Pianoman84d]

Hi Frank,

This is what ID companies are all about. Letting you try the gear in your own home to see if it is what YOU like in your own environment. You should not feel bad for deciding you do not like it. Thats the whole point. Hope you do find what you like!!:)

[littleb]

The Axiom M22s are another very respected and well built speaker that I tried
but could not get what I wanted to hear out of. They have a wonderful midrange but to my ears there wasn't enough high end, and they didn't fill my room as well as I had hoped. They are a fairly small speaker and to me they sounded a little small.

Ladies and gentleman, this must be a first. :D