Large yet affordableish bookshelves?

[Tod]

I'm about to get some new speakers for a 2 channel system in my room/office. Budget probably less than $400. I'm looking at things like the Axiom M3 V2 or Wharfedale Diamond 8.2 if I can find them (I love the champagne finish shown on Amazon!).

However, why don't any of the manufacturers of good speakers make something like the JBL E50? It's an 8" 3-way in a bookshelf-sized cabinet. Unless there's some problem inherent with the design, why can't someone produce speakers with the frequency response and driver size of a floorstanding speaker but without being 3 feet tall? I'm constrained by space, so anything that can't be on a waist-high shelf/stand/cabinet just won't work.

Does anyone know of anything a step above the big box store brands yet still within my budget? Thanks a bunch.

[Nick250]

You may have to go used. That being said, I recently auditioned the B&W 602 S3. I was very impressed by how rich it sounded playing full range, no sub. I think the list price was just about $600. A lot of speaker for the money IMO. In the Boston area one can get 10% to 15% off on it. Depends if you want to reach some budgetwize to get a lot more speaker. The Paradigm Mini Monitors are in your price range, though certainly a step below the 602 to my ears. Good luck.

Nick

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/Label/Model%20DM602%20S3

[mike c]

I agree with the B&W 602 s3 suggestion ... its got a 7" woofer - hard to beat in sound quality. and IMO is a match for Paradigm Studio 20 and 40 bookshelves which are both more expensive.

there's a paradigm Monitor that has an 8" woofer ...

my last 90's component was a kenwood with 10" woofers.

[Tomorrow]

I'm about to get some new speakers for a 2 channel system in my room/office. Budget probably less than $400. I'm looking at things like the Axiom M3 V2 or Wharfedale Diamond 8.2 if I can find them (I love the champagne finish shown on Amazon!).

However, why don't any of the manufacturers of good speakers make something like the JBL E50? It's an 8" 3-way in a bookshelf-sized cabinet. Unless there's some problem inherent with the design, why can't someone produce speakers with the frequency response and driver size of a floorstanding speaker but without being 3 feet tall? I'm constrained by space, so anything that can't be on a waist-high shelf/stand/cabinet just won't work.

Does anyone know of anything a step above the big box store brands yet still within my budget? Thanks a bunch.

What's wrong with the E50's? Have you A/B auditioned them against 'better' speakers? I'd think they're right up your alley with that budget. A lot of people are too quick to dismiss the JBL's without proper comparos.

If you have a bit more to spend on a small 3-way, I'd highly recommend the ACI Protege V's. They usually have some in B-stock for an added discount. http://www.audioc.com/speakers1/protegev/protegev.htm

Happy hunting.

[Tod]

Well, I'll freely admit that my reasons for not buying JBL aren't entirely based on objective sound quality parameters. It's entirely possible that given my source, room setup, and the level of refinement I've brought my ears to may not be enough to make a huge difference in how I perceive the sound.

That said, I do have my reasons. Partly it's because I desperately want to be as much of a snob/pseudo-audiophile as I can be. To put it in a more positive light, I'm trying to buy for the future. I may not always be stuck with an open closet behind one speaker and the other up against a brick wall. I don't want to have to repurchase my bookshelves because suddenly I'm placed in a position where I can hear the difference.

My listening preferences are mostly classical, and specifically certain composers that require the most clarity and dynamic range I can provide myself. I've used JBL in the past (and even present), but want to take it up a step if I can.

The other factor is looks. The Wharfedale Diamonds are simply beautiful, and the Axioms aren't bad either. The JBLs aren't pretty.

I don't know, I just don't want to have to make excuses for my speakers. "But but but they sound OK!" Even if they do. I want it to be assumed that they sound good just from looking at them.

And sadly, the $400 budget is pretty firm, maybe a few dollars more for an unbelieveable deal. But I've got too many upgrades to make and I can't blow it all on these, especially given some of the reviews for the Axioms that make it sound like I'd have to spend a huge amount more to equal the performance or exceed it in any meaningful way. But if I could just stretch out that bottom end a bit...

However, the suggestions are great. There is a Paradigm dealer not too far from here, so I may stop in and check out the Monitor 3s if they happen to have any around. Maybe there's a B&W dealer around here (Tucson, AZ) too. The DM602 S3s and Monitor 3s are exactly what I was imagining though. Thanks again.

[corey]

Klipsch might fit your parameters. The RB-61 has a msrp of 440 or so, so should be available below $400. The RB-81 has the 8" woofer you asked for, but is more like $600 per pair. They are both front ported, so can be mounted near or on a wall.

[billnchristy]

X-LS, $219 a pair. Won't dissapoint.

Listened to every $200 and up bookshelf at Fry's, not even close.

[Tomorrow]

Well, I'll freely admit that my reasons for not buying JBL aren't entirely based on objective sound quality parameters. It's entirely possible that given my source, room setup, and the level of refinement I've brought my ears to may not be enough to make a huge difference in how I perceive the sound.

That said, I do have my reasons. Partly it's because I desperately want to be as much of a snob/pseudo-audiophile as I can be. To put it in a more positive light, I'm trying to buy for the future. I may not always be stuck with an open closet behind one speaker and the other up against a brick wall. I don't want to have to repurchase my bookshelves because suddenly I'm placed in a position where I can hear the difference.

My listening preferences are mostly classical, and specifically certain composers that require the most clarity and dynamic range I can provide myself. I've used JBL in the past (and even present), but want to take it up a step if I can.

The other factor is looks. The Wharfedale Diamonds are simply beautiful, and the Axioms aren't bad either. The JBLs aren't pretty.

I don't know, I just don't want to have to make excuses for my speakers. "But but but they sound OK!" Even if they do. I want it to be assumed that they sound good just from looking at them.

And sadly, the $400 budget is pretty firm, maybe a few dollars more for an unbelieveable deal. But I've got too many upgrades to make and I can't blow it all on these, especially given some of the reviews for the Axioms that make it sound like I'd have to spend a huge amount more to equal the performance or exceed it in any meaningful way. But if I could just stretch out that bottom end a bit...

However, the suggestions are great. There is a Paradigm dealer not too far from here, so I may stop in and check out the Monitor 3s if they happen to have any around. Maybe there's a B&W dealer around here (Tucson, AZ) too. The DM602 S3s and Monitor 3s are exactly what I was imagining though. Thanks again.

The only way I see you doing what you want for the budget you have is to buy used. Audiogon or fleabay are good ways to go. Keep checking the classified section on Audioholics as well. I ducked over to Audiogon just a moment ago and saw these worthies...almost in your budget. With these, you can be as snobby as the next guy, lol. ;) http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1162212234
I have no affiliation with the seller, nor even know much about the speakers, except they come highly praised by semi-audiophiles. :)

If you go the new speaker route, I still recommend the JBL's. They're in your budget AND you can sell them when you're more financially prepared to do the "Look at these 18 Hz - 40k Hz babies!"

EDIT: This is just my opinion, mind you....I think you'll find the vinyl finish on the standard Axioms not up to your champagne dreams. Also, I've yet to hear a Paradigm speaker that I'd call 'musical'.

[braminator]

If you check the spec on all the speakers recommended, you will see woofer size does not always dictate usable bass.

Check out this one for your price. http://www.responseaudio.com/usher%20loudspeakers.htm
Do a search on google of all the rave reviews.

Usher Audio S-520 Shielded
Award-winning value.
$ 400 per pair

[billy p]

You could look at ascends cbm 170 small in stature but big in sound. Highly recommend on this forum. www.ascendacoustics.com

[Sheep]

Woo! This is a dilly of'a pickle.

Maybe to help narrow down our search, give us a useable bass response ratings. 45Hz? 40hz? With that in hand, we can be much more diligent.

Also, you should let us know what speakers you have experience with, and which one has a similar sound to the ones you're looking for. You never know, someone else may have the same experience.

Lastly, I personally think that bookshelfs get a bad rep in the bass game. Sure, they don't hit 40Hz at 100+dBs. That's not bass, that's a rock concert. My Energy C-1s are rated to 46Hz -10dB, nothing special by anymeans, but I still like how they sound full range, and I can still enjoy them greatly.

Food For Thought,

SheepStar

[mulester7]

Woo! This is a dilly of'a pickle.

Maybe to help narrow down our search, give us a useable bass response ratings. 45Hz? 40hz? With that in hand, we can be much more diligent.

Also, you should let us know what speakers you have experience with, and which one has a similar sound to the ones you're looking for. You never know, someone else may have the same experience.

Lastly, I personally think that bookshelfs get a bad rep in the bass game. Sure, they don't hit 40Hz at 100+dBs. That's not bass, that's a rock concert. My Energy C-1s are rated to 46Hz -10dB, nothing special by any means, but I still like how they sound full range, and I can still enjoy them greatly.

Food For Thought,

SheepStar.....Sheep, your bookshelves are doing exactly what they're supposed to do....two elements speaking together as one voice from the low-mids up....bookshelves are meant to be used with a sub for the full-range effect in your sound chamber, imo....I believe the best sound quality to be had is from two-way floorstanders for front mains, two-way center, and two-way bookshelves everywhere else, with subs in the front soundstage, supporting the front soundstage....

[Tod]

Woo! This is a dilly of'a pickle.

Maybe to help narrow down our search, give us a useable bass response ratings. 45Hz? 40hz? With that in hand, we can be much more diligent.

Also, you should let us know what speakers you have experience with, and which one has a similar sound to the ones you're looking for. You never know, someone else may have the same experience.

Lastly, I personally think that bookshelfs get a bad rep in the bass game. Sure, they don't hit 40Hz at 100+dBs. That's not bass, that's a rock concert. My Energy C-1s are rated to 46Hz -10dB, nothing special by anymeans, but I still like how they sound full range, and I can still enjoy them greatly.

Food For Thought,

SheepStar


Experience: none meaningful. I'm the only person I know or associate with that even seems to believe there's a meaningful difference between $50 and $1000 speakers. Until the last few months I've been too poor to move upward from typical consumer audio so didn't tempt myself with the awareness of what I was missing. I'm in a city that's just a bit too small to have much in the way of higher-end dealers, although there are a couple I'll check out now. And I feel bad deep down inside going to them and not buying anything. I'll get over it.

What I want: I can't say I have a target for bass frequency, although somewhere below 50 hz might be nice. I'm just trying to balance out looks, performance, and price and since I have no idea what's out there any suggestion is as good as the next. I'll admit that if there was the perfect speaker performance- and price-wise, but it was an ugly black box, I'd more than likely pass over it. Front ports are a plus, given the placement constraints. And I'll add a sub at some point. Actually I have one now but it's crap and if the speakers I get are good enough I'll make it go away sooner.

So yeah, I'm not making it easy on myself or everyone else, but at least you're all increasing my awareness of options. Which is exactly what I needed. Tips like suggesting the Axioms are better seen from a distance are wonderful, since I really have no way of knowing short of ordering them for a trial. I'll keep looking.

Here are my general household goals though. Home theater system will be mainly that. I'm planning on upgrading my current 105 w/channel Yamaha to the RV-2500, Polk RTi series speakers all around (10s front, pair of 4s center, 8s rear), plus existing Velodyne DPS-12. Availability and mid-range performance are all I need there. It will be good enough, and if I want to crank some music I'll have a place for it.

Most of the time though will be spent on my computer system, the one under consideration here. I've already got the HK 3480 receiver and crappy JBL POS-1998 sub with O.L.D. technology, Sennheiser 600s for late nights, and just need some proper speakers. Pseudo-audiophile quality, something that the untrained ear couldn't really find flaws in. And good looks too.

Sorry. I've got no clue. But I'm trying!

[Sheep]

.....Sheep, your bookshelves are doing exactly what they're supposed to do....two elements speaking together as one voice from the low-mids up....bookshelves are meant to be used with a sub for the full-range effect in your sound chamber, imo....I believe the best sound quality to be had is from two-way floorstanders for front mains, two-way center, and two-way bookshelves everywhere else, with subs in the front soundstage, supporting the front soundstage....

Oh I agree, but I don't feel that "full range" (20hz to 20Khz) is needed for enjoyment(and I'm mainly talking about 20hz; all speakers should be good to 20Khz).

I was just using my C-1s by themselves, and I was pleased with what I was hearing. It was a Jack Johnson song, and the bass line was present, but it wasn't over blown, which I feel towers seem to do. Since this system is for an office having a big bass response shouldn't be the main concern. Mid and treble defnintion, and looks should be the main factors.

SheepStar

[jcPanny]

If you are looking for an entry level bookshelf with some low end, look for the floorstander version of the Onix X-ls speakers to come out soon. It is a small floorstander tuned to the 40 Hz range, so they should hold you over until you get a sub. Only $300 / pair, and you wont need to buy stands. The matching sub, center, and surrounds are also affordable when you are ready to upgrade.
I think that the reason you don't see many 7-8" woofers on bookshelf speakers as subs are now common for HT. A smaller woofer will work beder for mids and play down to the 60-80Hz crossover frequency.

[billnchristy]

The main reason I suggested the XL-S is they are large for bookshelves, the heaviest bookshelfs I have ever handled for sure. They do a decent job at bass production, the kind that makes you say "hmm, not bad, now wheres that sub switch?" Id say they can reproduce high 40s as far as bass response goes.

Cabinet finish is beautiful, better than anything in its price range by a long shot.

They are certainly upgradable either by messing with x-overs like a lot do, or just moving them to rears when you get bigger mains. I certainly hear a long career ahead for my X-LS and I have 1k speakers downstairs but these get listened to much more often. (not that I like them more, they are just in the main living space).

They have done a respectable job with any music I have thrown at them, and that means pretty much all from old school booty bass, techno, classical, country, rock whatever.

[Tomorrow]

Experience: none meaningful. I'm the only person I know or associate with that even seems to believe there's a meaningful difference between $50 and $1000 speakers. Until the last few months I've been too poor to move upward from typical consumer audio so didn't tempt myself with the awareness of what I was missing. I'm in a city that's just a bit too small to have much in the way of higher-end dealers, although there are a couple I'll check out now. And I feel bad deep down inside going to them and not buying anything. I'll get over it.

What I want: I can't say I have a target for bass frequency, although somewhere below 50 hz might be nice. I'm just trying to balance out looks, performance, and price and since I have no idea what's out there any suggestion is as good as the next. I'll admit that if there was the perfect speaker performance- and price-wise, but it was an ugly black box, I'd more than likely pass over it. Front ports are a plus, given the placement constraints. And I'll add a sub at some point. Actually I have one now but it's crap and if the speakers I get are good enough I'll make it go away sooner.

So yeah, I'm not making it easy on myself or everyone else, but at least you're all increasing my awareness of options. Which is exactly what I needed. Tips like suggesting the Axioms are better seen from a distance are wonderful, since I really have no way of knowing short of ordering them for a trial. I'll keep looking.

Here are my general household goals though. Home theater system will be mainly that. I'm planning on upgrading my current 105 w/channel Yamaha to the RV-2500, Polk RTi series speakers all around (10s front, pair of 4s center, 8s rear), plus existing Velodyne DPS-12. Availability and mid-range performance are all I need there. It will be good enough, and if I want to crank some music I'll have a place for it.

Most of the time though will be spent on my computer system, the one under consideration here. I've already got the HK 3480 receiver and crappy JBL POS-1998 sub with O.L.D. technology, Sennheiser 600s for late nights, and just need some proper speakers. Pseudo-audiophile quality, something that the untrained ear couldn't really find flaws in. And good looks too.

Sorry. I've got no clue. But I'm trying!


IMHO, Tod, you're just throwing away money. 400 bucks is not going to buy you anything worthy of what you called "pseudo-audiophile" speakers. Your only hope to enter that field is through used purchasing. I share with you the beer budget and champagne tastes. But we have to do a reality check every now and then. :eek: :D

It's much too soon for you to worry about quality. Save your money until you can afford some. If you really don't care about sound as much as looks, as you said, then go for the best looking bookshelf speaks you can find under 4 bills. That ought to be easy. They're all gonna sound like $400 speakers.

Sorry to be balloon busting, but think through what you are doing. I agree with some of the others, here. Get a set of these and save the rest for when you can afford real quality. http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=82.1

or perhaps these 3-ways. http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?sHist=12-110&menu=true&id=29721

Also check out the thread in the Deals section on the Infinity Blowout Sale.

Happy hunting.

EDIT: Ixnay on the NHTs....that $400 price is per each. Sorry.

[Tod]

Dammit, never should have gone...

So a guy walks into a high-end audio store and walks out without any money.


Ha ha ha ha.


Ha ha.




Ha.



Sigh....



OK, I didn't actually buy anything yet, but am starting to look in some different directions. I went to the local Paradigm dealer today just to hear at least one of the speakers under discussion live. He turned out to also be a BW dealer, and of course there on the shelf was a pair of the 602 S3, as well as the slightly smaller S2. The S2 is just about where I wanted to keep the price, but comparing them to the S3 made a huge difference. Not one of those subtle things where you could only describe the difference in "wine-tasting" terms. It was a big, clear, decision-making difference.

Given that he also had the floor-standing models from the same series, I was of course more and more tempted to get something like that for the home theater too, rather than Polks (something I was never quite sure about to begin with, although it made an easy default choice). The whole setup going with the floor model for fronts, and S3s for rear plus another pair for the setup originally under discussion, is only about $650 over my original plans.

I'm going back armed with some of my most challenging CDs to see what the big ones can do, but I can feel my resolve and budget dreams slipping away fast.

And there are some extras I can do without that were also on my shopping list. A $300 KitchenAid blender, for one. I'll have to deal with poorly-blended coffee drinks for a while, I guess. Oh, the sad sad life of a poor student...

I'll make it work if I decide to go that way, and I wasn't planning on getting the home theater speakers until a few months from now anyway. Plenty of time to save.

I'll likely get a pair of the S3s now and see how the sound grows on me until my ship comes in this Christmas.

[Tod]

I forgot to even mention - I wasn't at all fond of the Paradigms. Wrong sound entirely for what I listen to.

[mike c]

did you listen to the 603 or 604 floor standing models? (hehe, yes there's a 604 with dual 7" woofers)

[bpape]

Haven't heard the X-LS yet but have heard good things from people I trust. As for a known that I have personally heard in differnt settings, I'd have to agree with the Ascend 170. It's not overly large but does an amazing job for a bookshelf in that price range.

Bryan

[Tomorrow]

Dammit, never should have gone...

So a guy walks into a high-end audio store and walks out without any money.


Ha ha ha ha.


Ha ha.




Ha.



Sigh....



OK, I didn't actually buy anything yet, but am starting to look in some different directions. I went to the local Paradigm dealer today just to hear at least one of the speakers under discussion live. He turned out to also be a BW dealer, and of course there on the shelf was a pair of the 602 S3, as well as the slightly smaller S2. The S2 is just about where I wanted to keep the price, but comparing them to the S3 made a huge difference. Not one of those subtle things where you could only describe the difference in "wine-tasting" terms. It was a big, clear, decision-making difference.

Given that he also had the floor-standing models from the same series, I was of course more and more tempted to get something like that for the home theater too, rather than Polks (something I was never quite sure about to begin with, although it made an easy default choice). The whole setup going with the floor model for fronts, and S3s for rear plus another pair for the setup originally under discussion, is only about $650 over my original plans.

I'm going back armed with some of my most challenging CDs to see what the big ones can do, but I can feel my resolve and budget dreams slipping away fast.

And there are some extras I can do without that were also on my shopping list. A $300 KitchenAid blender, for one. I'll have to deal with poorly-blended coffee drinks for a while, I guess. Oh, the sad sad life of a poor student...

I'll make it work if I decide to go that way, and I wasn't planning on getting the home theater speakers until a few months from now anyway. Plenty of time to save.

I'll likely get a pair of the S3s now and see how the sound grows on me until my ship comes in this Christmas.

Way to go, Tod! Mua ha haaa haaaaaaaa. Ye sees the light...Ye does it right! Now you know what you want and can plan and save for the ultimate target.

Congrats. When done, you're gonna be really proud of your system. Audio snobbery, here we come. :D (Don't rub it in too much with us lesser JBL owners, lol.)

[Tod]

Hey, I've been running JBLs for the last 8 years, so it's about time I can upgrade, don't you think?


And the floor model was the 604. I'm tempted to at least ask about the 603 just to save a few pennies, but why hold back?


I still wish there were more local options to check out, but yes buying from a real person in a real store where I can go in and sit down and talk for an hour plus and completely forget about the laundry I left at the laundromat is a nicer experience than online purchasing. That's the one factor here that's balancing out the looks issue, since the BWs are still black boxes. There's a cherry finish that I may get though...

[Tomorrow]

:D Hey, I've been running JBLs for the last 8 years, so it's about time I can upgrade, don't you think?


And the floor model was the 604. I'm tempted to at least ask about the 603 just to save a few pennies, but why hold back?


I still wish there were more local options to check out, but yes buying from a real person in a real store where I can go in and sit down and talk for an hour plus and completely forget about the laundry I left at the laundromat is a nicer experience than online purchasing. That's the one factor here that's balancing out the looks issue, since the BWs are still black boxes. There's a cherry finish that I may get though...

Well, since you're still in a partial dream state (or laundry escape mode), you could always lust after these B&W's. http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.ranges/label/Range%20Prestige%20Series

Not your basic black box....are they?! :D

[Tod]

Just plugged the 602 S3s in and am playing Shostakovich's 10th Symphony, 2nd movement. Nice. I've got some tweaking, maybe room rearrangement to do, but so much that really pissed me off about the cheap Sonys I'd been stuck with until now is gone. Good sound, just some annoying room reflections from furniture, closet, and so on.

This month is the most financially stable I've been since 2001, so believe me I wanted more earlier and just couldn't do it. Sony. My god.

[Nick250]

Congratulations, very nice speakers. I liked them a lot when I demoed them.

Nick

[Sheep]

Just plugged the 602 S3s in and am playing Shosatkovich's 10th Symphony, 2nd movement. Nice. I've got some tweaking, maybe room rearrangement to do, but so much that really pissed me off about the cheap Sonys I'd been stuck with until now is gone. Good sound, just some annoying room reflections from furniture, closet, and so on.

This month is the most financially stable I've been since 2001, so believe me I wanted more earlier and just couldn't do it. Sony. My god.
Good on ya mate. Enjoy them.

SheepStar

[Tod]

One sort of irrelevant ignorant question here: Due to the constraints of having to fit a queen-sized bed, large computer desk, small desk, extra-deep file cabinet, big dresser thing, and some smaller stands into a 10x12 room, I really have no choice but to have the speakers essentially directly opposite each other on each side of my ears. It gives a very nice headphone-like experience if I don't move my head around too much. I can get the height and distance perfectly equal between speakers at least, with some of the rearranging I just did.

Is there some obscure acoustical reason why you shouldn't have speakers facing each other? If it creates some sort of wave interference thing, is my head big enough to break it up? They're currently about 34" from each ear. Nice and close, although as I said not much room for error in the sweet spot. I do like the effect though of having the music sound like it's coming from inside my head.

And I'm quite happy with them. I'm running them without the sub, and they're just about good enough as is! I was quite impressed. Turn up the bass levels a bit, and on something like Steppin Razor by Sublime I can feel my clothes vibrate. Nice. I'll probably add the sub back in sometimes, but I'm not losing much considering the quality of the sub.

It's a very very nice listening experience, far better quality than anything I've had up to now. The Sennheisers are great, but still headphones. I can't really wear them in the shower or share the sound with other people. And the bigger HT system is still pretty good for shaking the walls and readjusting my heart rhythm, but definitely a flawed sound.

These though should darn well be good enough, more than good enough, for some years. Unless of course I strike it rich somehow sooner than I anticipate.


Edit: And a very big Thank You again to everyone who suggested things on here! I much appreciate it!!!

[Nick250]

There are those who actually prefer "near field" listening though I don't know exactly how near "near field" is. I would think of it as a trial and kind or thing for your room.
Nick