Opinions Wanted On Biwiring Klipsch Speakers

[bosco_62]

Hi everyone what are your opinions on biwiring klipsch speakers? I recently purchesed a pair of Klipsch RF82's and they give me the option to biwire them. If I do biwire them what difference in sound should I hear or if I will hear any difference in the sound at all? And is biwiring worth it? Thanks.

[mtrycrafts]

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Hi everyone what are your opinions on biwiring klipsch speakers? I recently purchesed a pair of Klipsch RF82's and they give me the option to biwire them. If I do biwire them what difference in sound should I hear or if I will hear any difference in the sound at all? And is biwiring worth it? Thanks.


A waste of time and wire. This practice is over hyped. Some speaker makers just accommodate the hi end market by providing this capability.

[mtrycrafts]

Come to think of it, some time back a poster sent an email to this speaker company engineers about this.
It is a marketing department decision, not derived in engineering. :D

[bosco_62]

Hi thank you for your insight which makes alot of sense. Out of sheer curiousity I went ahead and biwired one of of my RF82's and to my suprise I heard and difference in the quality of the sound, not a big difference but a noticable one. I noticed that lows went slightly deeper and the highs were more crisp sounding.
My sense of hearing is very hightened since I'm legally blind, so maybe thats why I heard a difference. I also didn't know what difference if any in the sound to expect due to the fact that I had no basis to refer from. I do believe however obviously results will very from no difference to a significant difference depending on the type of speakers and equipment one maybe using.
Once again thank you mtrycrafts for your input which is so true about the marketing departments ambitions. Your definalty right about that.

[PENG]

Hi thank you for your insight which makes alot of sense. Out of sheer curiousity I went ahead and biwired one of of my RF82's and to my suprise I heard and difference in the quality of the sound, not a big difference but a noticable one. I noticed that lows went slightly deeper and the highs were more crisp sounding.
My sense of hearing is very hightened since I'm legally blind, so maybe thats why I heard a difference. I also didn't know what difference if any in the sound to expect due to the fact that I had no basis to refer from. I do believe however obviously results will very from no difference to a significant difference depending on the type of speakers and equipment one maybe using.
Once again thank you mtrycrafts for your input which is so true about the marketing departments ambitions. Your definalty right about that.

Good for you, and I am not surprised. Electrically, there is a difference (some people even denies this fact for whatever reasons) in terms of how the signals are carried from the amp to the speaker. Whether it translates into any audible difference, if you do a search, you will find much debates on this topic.

[sivadselim]

A waste of time and wire.
Out of sheer curiousity I went ahead and biwired one of of my RF82's and to my suprise I heard and difference in the quality of the sound, not a big difference but a noticable one. I noticed that lows went slightly deeper and the highs were more crisp sounding.
Good for you, and I am not surprised.
Exactly.

It doesn't waste very much time nor money.

If it sounds better bi-wired, real or imagined, more power to you. Go for it. Your opinion is the ONLY one that matters.

:D

[Sheep]

Exactly.

It doesn't waste very much time nor money.

If it sounds better bi-wired, real or imagined, more power to you. Go for it. Your opinion is the ONLY one that matters.

:D

So you recommend spending hundreds on cable risers, even if they don't make an ACTUAL difference?

OP,

This is the mind playing tricks on you. In order for those claims to have and base, you need to hear both speakers blind, not knowing which one is biwired, and then see if you can hear a difference. Personally, I think this wiring method is useless, and should be named "Buy-wire", cause that's all you're doing. It can make a difference, if you have an insufficient size wire running to the speaker. Biwiring will help in that regard, but it doesn't make a speaker play lower, and all you need is 1 14ga wire per speaker to make biwiring useless.

SheepStar

[bosco_62]

Well I didn't spend hundreds of $$$ I just used two pieces of 12 gauge wire of the exact same lenght that I already had, thats how I tested it. Believe me you, I'm not one to spend hundreds of $$$ on something that will not make a major difference.

[sivadselim]

So you recommend spending hundreds on cable risers, even if they don't make an ACTUAL difference?

No, I didn't say that. At all. Did I?

[PENG]

This is the mind playing tricks on you. In order for those claims to have and base, you need to hear both speakers blind, not knowing which one is biwired, and then see if you can hear a difference. Personally, I think this wiring method is useless, and should be named "Buy-wire", cause that's all you're doing. It can make a difference, if you have an insufficient size wire running to the speaker. Biwiring will help in that regard, but it doesn't make a speaker play lower, and all you need is 1 14ga wire per speaker to make biwiring useless.

SheepStar

I bi-wire my Veritas (the speakers that you like). I cannnot hear the difference but since I know enough electrical theory about bi-wire I am not surprised when someone claimed to be able to hear the difference. Just because I can't hear something, doesn't mean others cannot.

I left the Veritas bi-wired anyway, it allows me to measure the currents flow into the LF and H/MF drivers separately. My 12 ga. wires are short so it doesn't cost much at all.

[Haoleb]

Hi thank you for your insight which makes alot of sense. Out of sheer curiousity I went ahead and biwired one of of my RF82's and to my suprise I heard and difference in the quality of the sound, not a big difference but a noticable one. I noticed that lows went slightly deeper and the highs were more crisp sounding.
My sense of hearing is very hightened since I'm legally blind, so maybe thats why I heard a difference. I also didn't know what difference if any in the sound to expect due to the fact that I had no basis to refer from. I do believe however obviously results will very from no difference to a significant difference depending on the type of speakers and equipment one maybe using.
Once again thank you mtrycrafts for your input which is so true about the marketing departments ambitions. Your definalty right about that.


That sure shut Mtry up quick. No offense Mtry but your not the know all end all of Audio. Nor am I. Rather than say that he wont hear a difference and its stupid is mainly based on your own experiences and perhaps those of others. But rather, maybe you should be a little more open and say that he may or may not notice a difference, more likely not. Just a suggestion. I Biwire my speakers, and no I dont hear a difference. I didnt even test to see if I heard a difference because I dont think I would have. And i dont care! But I had the wire laying around and it didnt hurt anything so why not.

We all must base our advice on personal experience and beliefs, But we shouldnt go around telling folks with less experience that what we say is a definite. Sometimes this is the case. (EX-Do i need a phono preamp, cant i just plug it into cd or aux?) but not, what are your opinions on biwiring my speakers.

Thats just MY OPINION

[mtrycrafts]

Your opinion is the ONLY one that matters.
:D


Obviously others opinions mattered to him as he asked, otherwise he would not have, right?

Now, if it is imagined, why does one need to do all that work to imagine a difference?

Certainly there is no real evidence from bias controlled comparisons that it makes an audible difference so, that leaves only one conclusion.

[mtrycrafts]

[QUOTE=Haoleb]That sure shut Mtry up quick.

You think it did??? Hardly. I just don't sit here 24/7 to respond.

No offense Mtry but your not the know all end all of Audio.

Never claimed to be. Obviously he wanted others opinions and I gave mine based on available data.


Rather than say that he wont hear a difference and its stupid is mainly based on your own experiences and perhaps those of others.

Actually, it is based in lack of any credible evidence that it makes an audible difference, period. I don't trust unreliable experiences or perceptions.
He just had such an unreliable experience and perception. Obviously he was just looking for a supporting opinion. No matter. My input was free.


But rather, maybe you should be a little more open and say that he may or may not notice a difference, more likely not.

Why??? That is a false and unreliable input to him, to appease him.

I suppose I should tell people about homeopathic medicines that perhaps it will help them? You have the wrong person to do that.

I Biwire my speakers, and no I dont hear a difference.

OK. That is a preference. Nothing wrong with a preference.


We all must base our advice on personal experience and beliefs,

Why???
No wonder there is so much hype, mythology, bs, voodoo, urban legends floating around.
Personal experience does not guarantee factual events or reality. Might as well seek the help of psychics.:confused:



But we shouldnt go around telling folks with less experience that what we say is a definite.


Oh, no? I suppose then 2+2 could be 4.5???

[mtrycrafts]

and I am not surprised. c.


Surprised at what?:rolleyes:

[mtrycrafts]

[ My sense of hearing is very hightened since I'm legally blind, so maybe thats why I heard a difference. ]


It has not been shown that blind people have a better, lower threshold of of sound detection.
What you perceived is natural under uncontrolled and flawed comparisons.
But, you are happy and that is all that matters.

[Nick250]

That sure shut Mtry up quick. No offense Mtry but your not the know all end all of Audio.Thats just MY OPINION

Agree or disagree with Mtry, know that he has done his homework and has evidence for his comments unpopular though some maybe. Is he always right? No. Are you? No. Am I? No. No need for the snippy comments Haoleb.

Nick

[bosco_62]

Hey everyone, didn't mean to start such a heated discussion:cool: , Well thank you for all your inputs and opinions.

[PENG]

Surprised at what?:rolleyes:

Surprised at, no I meant not surprised that he heard a difference. Actually for the following two reasons.

Firstly, the electrical theory:

You obviously know Ohm's law, Kirchoff's law, Ampere's law and Friday's law etc. As such, you probably know that I am right about the fact that bi-wire makes a difference in terms of how the H/MF, LF signals travel from the amp's output terminals to the now physically separated loudspeaker input terminals (that in turn, separates the internal XO networks resulting in two signal paths with different impedance characteristics). If not, please re-read some of our debates on this topic or search the web. I could only find one short article on the web that tried demonstrate why there is no electrical difference, but it was unclear if the author was talking about a properly bi-wire scheme.

As to how the resulting difference in signal flows affect the speaker's response, many manufacturers including Axiom and B&W claimed it could in some cases, improve the sound. Anyone can read the detailed explanation on their sites.

Secondly, perception:

Theory alone does not always reflect reality due to many limiting factors. The limited hearing ability in human is one of the factors in this case. Bosco claimed that his hearing sense is very heightened, and the way he asked the question seemed to me he was well prepared to hearing the somewhat expected audible difference to him.

mtry, overall I think I only disagree with you on one point, in that I do not believe we know enough to state with certainty that no one can actually hear a difference.

[Sheep]

No, I didn't say that. At all. Did I?

You said,

If it sounds better bi-wired, real or imagined, more power to you. Go for it.

How is this way of looking at things different from what I said?

Do you only believe in certain voodoo, or all of it? If he said he spent $1000 on wire risers, would you say "Good, you think it made a difference, that's all that matters"?

If he buys a little pepple to stick on his amp, that costs $100, and thinks it makes a difference, would you say "Good, go for it"?

You're giving bad advice, all of which is false.

SheepStar

SheepStar

[mtrycrafts]

mtry, overall I think I only disagree with you on one point, in that I do not believe we know enough to state with certainty that no one can actually hear a difference.


I would like to see it properly demonstrated by someone at least :D
Perception is not always reality. Knowing when it is is the question. Accepting a report as his is a big mistake, even if it turns out to be reality under controlled conditions. It is a disservice to him, IMO, to encourage this as reality based on such a poor comparison as his.

Bosco claimed that his hearing sense is very heightened

Yes he did. But as I have posted, testing blind people do not bear this out:

R. Bucklein, 'The Audibility of Frequency Response Irregularities,' JAES vol 29, no 3, 1981, page 126-131.

[mtrycrafts]

I left the Veritas bi-wired anyway, it allows me to measure the currents flow into the LF and H/MF drivers separately. My 12 ga. wires are short so it doesn't cost much at all.


What would be interesting is to accurately measure the effects at each
speaker voice coil for differences when the speaker is bi-wired and not. That will tell you much more about any differences and its magnitudes.
And, if bi-wiring or rather not bi-wiring introduces IM in the wires themselves. But then, you'd have to eliminate the wire in the amp too as it would also have that IM, if that is the cause.
But, right now, I just don't see any evidence that anyone can hear a difference when bias is controlled for.

[mtrycrafts]

Hey everyone, didn't mean to start such a heated discussion:cool: , Well thank you for all your inputs and opinions.


You didn't cause anything:D

We are discussing. Some things just gets discussed more than others, at times. Not the first, nor the last.:D

You should see some of the discussions elsewhere, especially some of the closed threads:D ID comes to mind;)

[PENG]

And, if bi-wiring or rather not bi-wiring introduces IM in the wires themselves. But then, you'd have to eliminate the wire in the amp too as it would also have that IM, if that is the cause.


You've got a valid point here but the wire in the amp isn't that long is it? So as long as the signals are divided right after the amp's terminals, you can keep those IM or any other adverse effect to a minimum.

Anyway, I know you've finally read up on this thing, you are softening up:) :D , now you probably agree there is a difference electrically. You just don't believe it has any audible effect, and I am not going to argue with you on that because I have not seen, read, or experience anything to support such argument.

[PENG]

IMO, to encourage this as reality based on such a poor comparison as his.

Bosco claimed that his hearing sense is very heightened

Yes he did. But as I have posted, testing blind people do not bear this out:

R. Bucklein, 'The Audibility of Frequency Response Irregularities,' JAES vol 29, no 3, 1981, page 126-131.

Okay, you are right. I didn't mean to encourage him to believe his perceived difference was real. I meant to express my belief in the possibility (just a possibility) that he might have in fact heard a difference. Edit: Also, if he did, it could have been partially due to the theory/reasons cited by many speaker manufacturers (not wire manufacturers). To get to the truth, one would need to do a comparison properly and thoroughly.

[bosco_62]

Hey guys I want to ask you who are you talking about when this was stated:
"Do you only believe in certain voodoo, or all of it? If he said he spent $1000 on wire risers, would you say "Good, you think it made a difference, that's all that matters"?

If he buys a little pepple to stick on his amp, that costs $100, and thinks it makes a difference, would you say "Good, go for it"?"

Who are you talking about? I didn't spend $1000 on wire risers. And when said I believe I have hightend hearing I said that because I rellie more on my hearing instead of my vision. I never said it was a proven fact that blind people have better hearing it was just my opinion of myself and no one else.

Don't let this be the center of your discussion. Everyone is over analizing, look it sounds like some of you are trying to find any reason why I shouldn't have heard a difference. When the fact is that I heard a difference wheather you can except it or not. And by the way I never said I heard a HUGE difference.
Good chattin' guys:D

[Nick250]

The comments you referenced were hypothetical I think. And to speak to the last paragraph of your post above, you asked for opinions on what is a controversial subject and you got them. I think it's one of those be careful what you ask for situations. ;)

Nick

[PENG]

The comments you referenced were hypothetical I think. And to speak to the last paragraph of your post above, you asked for opinions on what is a controversial subject and you got them. I think it's one of those be careful what you ask for situations. ;)

Nick

Nick, I agree with what you are saying, often time I do feel people are a little quick to dismiss what people are hearing or not. I think it is fine to question or express doubt about the comparison methodologies but people shouldn't be so sure about what people heard or not. Regarding this very topic, I know the scientific/engineering basis cited by many loudspeaker manufacturers do not mean a human being has the ability to hear the difference resulting in bi-wiring. However, a hundred years ago, most people probably would not believe a human could land on the moon even though they already knew and believe in Newton's law of motions. Now this is hypothetical and not even relevant so please be kind!

It is good to see that Bosco ends his last response saying "Good chattin' guys". And, I hope Sheep won't get mad at me now.........

P.S. Have you tried bi-amping your 3806 yet, more power for your digms:)

[Nick250]

P.S. Have you tried bi-amping your 3806 yet, more power for your digms:)

Bi-amping you ask. I still have my heals dug in on no external amplification. I must say that I am tempted sometimes. If I did get external amps I don't think I could make mention of it here. Marty would bawl me out and moose would gloat.

Nick

[billy p]

I must say that I am tempted sometimes. If I did get external amps I don't think I could make mention of it here. Marty would bawl me out and moose would gloat.

Nick

I've read enough posts, your CORRECT :D .

[highfihoney]

If you hear a difference when bi wiring then go for it,just because something cant be proven in a series of db tests does not mean that its not benificial to improving a systems sound.

[mtrycrafts]

To get to the truth, one would need to do a comparison properly and thoroughly.


Yes, absolutely:D
Outcome makes no difference to me under those conditions. Facts are facts then.:D

[mtrycrafts]

When the fact is that I heard a difference wheather you can except it or not. And by the way I never said I heard a HUGE difference.
Good chattin' guys:D


No. The fact is you perceived something. Finding out if you really heard something need a better listening protocol than what you performed.
Yes, the fact is, you knew what you were listening to; you didn't need to see anything. It wasn't a double blind test, it wasn't sample sufficiently for a statistical analysis. It is well known that bias, internal, uncontrolled, will alter perception.
People do hear all sorts of things when there is no sound to hear, or, when no equipment is in fact changed. Human psychology and bias. This is what we are talking about and need to control for for better, reliable results.

[mtrycrafts]

Bi-amping you ask. I still have my heals dug in on no external amplification. I must say that I am tempted sometimes. If I did get external amps I don't think I could make mention of it here. Marty would bawl me out and moose would gloat.

Nick


You still don't understand me after all this time. I want you to enjoy this hobby. If bi-amping brings that, great. Just be careful of testable claims:D

Actually, bi-amping the proper way, no passive crossovers what so ever, only active, is the way to go. That, you will hear a difference from.:D

[mtrycrafts]

. However, a hundred years ago, most people probably would not believe a human could land on the moon even though they already knew and believe in Newton's law of motions. Now this is hypothetical and not even relevant so please be kind!

I will be kind. You are one of the best here:D

But, how would this be a a comparison here?
A 100 years ago, technology was not even on the horizon to do this. On the other hand, we can test now what we can hear. A 100 years from now, evolution may not be so kind to us with all the noise pollution, no reason to increase sensitivity to survive.:D Hearing may be worse by then.:D

[Nick250]

You still don't understand me after all this time. I want you to enjoy this hobby. If bi-amping brings that, great. Just be careful of testable claims:D
D

It was tongue in cheek Marty ;) No problems ;)

Nick

[mtrycrafts]

It was tongue in cheek Marty ;) No problems ;)

Nick


Oh, that is mucho better:D

[mtrycrafts]

many manufacturers including Axiom and B&W claimed it could in some cases, improve the sound. Anyone can read the detailed explanation on their sites.
.


Here is a paragraph from their experimentation:

Will it sound any different if you biwire? Some users think it does, but I've never heard any differences, nor have any of our laboratory measurements or scientifically controlled double blind listening tests ever demonstrated there are audible differences. Axiom includes the extra terminals as a nod to those enthusiasts who believe that biwiring results in audible benefits and for the bi-ampers.

So, it appears that they have conducted some DBT with no audible differences from their speakers at least.
And, they seem to just accept market forces when they include this capability on their speakers.

I had similar feedback from Paradigm when I called them. While it is in the manual and on their speakers, they cannot support its benefits from controlled experimentation.