small footprint subs ~$1k

Hi,

I am looking for a subwoofer to augment my 2 channel setup (below). I am looking to keep the subwoofer as small as possible due to space constraints in my apartment and keep the cost below $1000. I am not above buying used.

The listening room is an acoustic nightmare, about 20'x30' with an open double-door into the dining room. I would like a subwoofer that is as close to a cubic foot in volume as possible (without sacrificing too much in quality - I know SVS and Hsu make great subs but they are large!). I would also prefer a subwoofer with hookups for both LFE and 2 channel listening (and will automatically work with either), however that is of secondary concern.

I listen to music more than 50% of the time, and I'm more critical of music quality than I am with movies - thus, high SPL is not as important to me as a musical sub.

I've been looking at the Dynaudio Sub 250, as well as offerings from Martin Logan. The ACI Force looks interesting, but is very large (at least it looks like furniture). I've also contemplated two X subs from Onix. I have not tested any of these with my setup yet (only in stores) but I will try and get my choice to 2 or 3 and do some comparisons if possible.

Please let me know which of these, or other brands, would fit my needs. Any insight would be great.

My audio setup:
Speakers: Thiel 1.6
Receiver: Yamaha RX-V2600
Amp: NAD 218THX
CD/DVD Player: Sony NV50
Turntable: Stanton with Grado Blue Cartridge

dkordonowy said:

Hi,

I am looking for a subwoofer to augment my 2 channel setup (below). I am looking to keep the subwoofer as small as possible due to space constraints in my apartment and keep the cost below $1000. I am not above buying used.

The listening room is an acoustic nightmare, about 20'x30' with an open double-door into the dining room. I would like a subwoofer that is as close to a cubic foot in volume as possible (without sacrificing too much in quality - I know SVS and Hsu make great subs but they are large!). I would also prefer a subwoofer with hookups for both LFE and 2 channel listening (and will automatically work with either), however that is of secondary concern.

I listen to music more than 50% of the time, and I'm more critical of music quality than I am with movies - thus, high SPL is not as important to me as a musical sub.

I've been looking at the Dynaudio Sub 250, as well as offerings from Martin Logan. The ACI Force looks interesting, but is very large (at least it looks like furniture). I've also contemplated two X subs from Onix. I have not tested any of these with my setup yet (only in stores) but I will try and get my choice to 2 or 3 and do some comparisons if possible.

Please let me know which of these, or other brands, would fit my needs. Any insight would be great.

My audio setup:
Speakers: Thiel 1.6
Receiver: Yamaha RX-V2600
Amp: NAD 218THX
CD/DVD Player: Sony NV50
Turntable: Stanton with Grado Blue Cartridge

Click to expand...

SVS large,yes tall if you get a plantstand but a small footprint like you ask.

shokhead said:

SVS large,yes tall if you get a plantstand but a small footprint like you ask.

Click to expand...

A tangential question is, which SVS subs produce more musical sound at this point - the boxes or the cylinders?

Might want to check out this line of subs if your more concerned with music. There is also a 10" and 15" version available.

EDIT: Oops forgot.

I'll PM you the link.

This came to mind when you mentioned a "small footprint." Check out the dimensions and amplifier power. I'm also a huge fan of Martin Logan. You really can't beat them for musicality.

http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?sHist=12-161,6-547&menu=true&id=29988

dkordonowy said:

A tangential question is, which SVS subs produce more musical sound at this point - the boxes or the cylinders?

Click to expand...

I abit on an island with this because i think a good sub is good at being a sub and a bad sub is bad so i just dont buy into this musical sub and movie sub but i know most others do.

shokhead said:

I abit on an island with this because i think a good sub is good at being a sub and a bad sub is bad so i just dont buy into this musical sub and movie sub but i know most others do.

Click to expand...

I do understand where you are coming from, and so by musical I do mean accurate, which I believe you mean 'good'.

Let me rephrase the question - bang for the buck, do I get more accuracy with a cylinder or box from SVS?

I think a couple STF-1s would be pretty sweet.

SheepStar

sub

Hi,

I was looking for a small sub that could please me. Unfortunately I did not find a single one
I listened to REL ( good but not more ), Mj Acoustics ( good but not impressive ), Klipsch RSW ( loud but not deep enough ) and so on and remind most of them were really expensive pieces. Even expensiver than for example an SVS !!
As I did not found a small sub that gave me a special feeling I gave the bigger subs a chance again and finally I bought the +2.
Yesterday when watching King Kong it felt like that Gorilla was sitting on my roof...........

I have listened to a Dynaudio too, boy did not like it all and EXPENSIVE.
No power, no slam, no kick in the ***.........Expensive toy that does not do well.

What I am trying to say to you is " if you do not get happy with a small sub or cannot find one then give the big ones a try again ".
Just go and listen to a smaller sized sub, if you get lucky....I am lucky too but if not then give the bigger boxes a try again

cheerzzzzzzzz

ACI's Force comes close to meeting your requirements and you could get the R-DES eq system too at your budget. The Onix UFW-10 would be a good choice too but doesn't have LFE and 2 channel simultaneously like the Force.

Tex-amp said:

ACI's Force comes close to meeting your requirements and you could get the R-DES eq system too at your budget. The Onix UFW-10 would be a good choice too but doesn't have LFE and 2 channel simultaneously like the Force.

Click to expand...

The new Force seems like it could fit the bill. Can anyone tell me what the sonic difference between it and the Martin Logan Grotto (or for that matter the Dynamo)?

And how does it compare to a SVS cylinder?

(two very different questions I know)

shokhead said:

I abit on an island with this because i think a good sub is good at being a sub and a bad sub is bad so i just dont buy into this musical sub and movie sub but i know most others do.

Click to expand...

Well, a bad sub is a bad sub - no arguments there. But when I went on my rant listening to every sub I could in a few major cities (Dallas, Columbus, Detroit, Windsor), I did find that there is a tradeoff with cabinet size and HT bass. No matter how much power, how strong your driver, lack of cabinet size will effect your lowest Hz output. Now, keeping that in mind - there is a trade off with size and the ability to go low. This is why you'll see multiple ports in your largest subwoofers. They go so low, they give up some that punchy bass found in your high end sealed, smaller subs.

When I went to the SVS factory near Youngstown, I preferred the box subs over the cylinders for both music and movies. I found the dual/2 box subs the absolute best subs for HT. The PB10 was very good for music, and still impressive for movies in mid to smaller sized rooms. The cylinders went low, but not with the same tactile force as the dual box subs. They didn't seem to have that chest thumping punch, either.

When I demo'd the HSU VTF 3 in Canada, I was pretty much blown away by it's sound for music. It's HT reproduction was equivalent to a PB12 ISD. Both of those had very large footprints.

The Martin Logan mini subs were all outstanding for music, but didn't hold a candle to the larger HSU/SVS subs with HT. I found the same thing with the Def Tech Supercube subs. Outstanding for music, but nothing doing down below 20Hz for movies.

My point has always been - there is no perfect sub for everything. Personally, I enjoy listening to music with two towers and no sub. With bookshelves, the sub is definitely needed.

av123 BMF sub

Mark Seaton is working on the BMF sub for av123. It will have a custom 12" driver, three 15" passive radiators, and a 1k Watt amp for plenty of LFE in a large room like yours. Check the av123 forum for some initial models and dimensions, but it should be better looking and performing than the SVS subs and might be worth the wait.

jcPanny said:

Mark Seaton is working on the BMF sub for av123. It will have a custom 12" driver, three 15" passive radiators, and a 1k Watt amp for plenty of LFE in a large room like yours. Check the av123 forum for some initial models and dimensions, but it should be better looking and performing than the SVS subs and might be worth the wait.

Click to expand...

He is looking for something as close to a cubic foot in volume as he can find.

I can highly recommend the Infinity Intermezzo 1.2s sub. It is a fairly small, well made sealed sub that sounds great for music, but can still get low and loud for movies. They've been discontinued but I see them occasionally on Ebay and Audiogon.

Buckeyefan 1 said:

This came to mind when you mentioned a "small footprint." Check out the dimensions and amplifier power. I'm also a huge fan of Martin Logan. You really can't beat them for musicality.

http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?sHist=12-161,6-547&menu=true&id=29988

Click to expand...

This small sub has really piqued my interest since I'm in the market for a supplemental small sub that can do 20Hz for <$500. However, I see a conflict here.

Here's what onecall states:
Every product you purchase from OneCall comes with the manufacturer's full warranty.

However this is what Sunfire states:
TO OUR VALUED CUSTOMERS:
Sunfire does NOT AUTHORIZE ANY INTERNET SALES of its products. The WARRANTY on Sunfire products IS NOT VALID if the products were purchased over the internet, or from a non-authorized Sunfire dealer.

I'm not challenging your post Buck, but more to the point I'm wondering what would happen if the D-10 arrives DOA or something else.

Who stands behind it, or is the customer S.O.L.?

JeffD2. said:

This small sub has really piqued my interest since I'm in the market for a supplemental small sub that can do 20Hz for <$500. However, I see a conflict here.

Here's what onecall states:
Every product you purchase from OneCall comes with the manufacturer's full warranty.

However this is what Sunfire states:
TO OUR VALUED CUSTOMERS:
Sunfire does NOT AUTHORIZE ANY INTERNET SALES of its products. The WARRANTY on Sunfire products IS NOT VALID if the products were purchased over the internet, or from a non-authorized Sunfire dealer.

I'm not challenging your post Buck, but more to the point I'm wondering what would happen if the D-10 arrives DOA or something else.

Who stands behind it, or is the customer S.O.L.?

Click to expand...

I think someone posted a similar concern a few months ago, and called Sunfire to see what was up. They said Sunfire is honoring the warranties on the "D" sub units. But to make triple sure, here's a number to check for yourself. You could request they send you confirmation via email before placing an order. That way you have it in writing.

Sunfire
1920 Bickford Avenue
Snohomish, WA 98290
Phone: 425-335-4748
Fax: 425-335-4746
8:00 am to 5:00 pm PST (Mon - Fri)

dkordonowy said:

The listening room is an acoustic nightmare, about 20'x30' with an open double-door into the dining room.

Click to expand...

Thats a huge room to fill with decent amounts of bass, especially with an opening to the adjacent room, and trying to do it with a 1 cubic foot sub would be near impossible. But maybe your ideal level of bass isn't the same as mine

I agree with shokhead, I think what people are referring to when they say musical or HT sub is trading off certain things to work within a budget for a sub. Let me explain how I see it

If they are after a Musical sub: they look for one that has great transient response, low distortion and on a budget this will mean, more often than not, sacrificing the lower Fq response and High SPL.

If they are after a HT sub: They look for one that has the lowest Fq response with the highest SPL possible and on a budget this will mean, more often than not, sacrificing transient response and low distortion.

If the budget and size is not a concern(this is most often not the case) you can Buy or build a sub/s that is pure and simply accurate, something that plays as low as possible(below 20Hz(or even below 10Hz )), high SPL(above 120db in room), great transient response(servo systems can help with this) and low distortion(below 5% THD). Then you have an accurate sub that can do it all perfectly and you're are in sub nirvana But wait, then your room modes F*** everything up and you need to treat that and sit in the sweet spot to enjoy it

Sorry, I think I went a little off topic

cheers

Buckeyefan 1 said:

I think someone posted a similar concern a few months ago, and called Sunfire to see what was up. They said Sunfire is honoring the warranties on the "D" sub units. But to make triple sure, here's a number to check for yourself........

Click to expand...

Well I just did call (thank you for supplying the number Buck), here's the deal:

It is true that any SUNFIRE branded item sold through the internet will not have its warranty honored.

However, the D-10 Dominator technically IS NOT a Sunfire product. It is manufactured under the company name of "Woofers by Bob Carver". There are two authorized internet vendors, OneCall.com and AudioAdvisor.com.

So I asked "Who would honor the warranty then?"
She replied "We do"
I asked "You, being Sunfire?"
She said "Yes, Sunfire honors the warranty"

So there ya go folks. As long as you follow the above criteria, you should be okay.

Current price for the D-10 on AudioAdvisor is $549 with a demo unit on sale for $429. OneCall has new (I presume) for $449.

For $1000.00 you can get 2x Outlaw LFM-1 subs. Heres the link, LFM-1