Building a Home Theater PC: Why do I need a Soundcard?

[redshifter]

i want to use my denon ht reciever to decode dd, dts, pl2, etc. signals from the htpc (the mobo has a connection for direct digital coax out):

[analog tv cable]-->[tuner card]-->[htpc motherboard's onboard soundcard]-->[digital coax out]-->[high end digital coax cable]-->[denon ht reciver for decoding (dolby digital, pl2, etc.)]

you notice in this configuration buying a seperate soundcard is not specified.

do you know if this would work?

also, are there any video cards with a dedicated component video out?

[Methost]

i want to use my denon ht reciever to decode dd, dts, pl2, etc. signals from the htpc (the mobo has a connection for direct digital coax out):

[analog tv cable]-->[tuner card]-->[htpc motherboard's onboard soundcard]-->[digital coax out]-->[high end digital coax cable]-->[denon ht reciver for decoding (dolby digital, pl2, etc.)]

you notice in this configuration buying a seperate soundcard is not specified.

do you know if this would work?

also, are there any video cards with a dedicated component video out?


I dont know why it wouldnt work. I have my digital coax out on my motherboard and it connects to my receiver. Though I have never streamed a DTS feed to it, only stereo from my mp3 player.

I dont recall ever seeing component outs on a video card, but I would imagine that someone makes one.

[redshifter]

thanks for the encouraging reply!

i don't suppose you could try outputting a dolby digital signal from your htpc?

geforce 6600 and up include a s-video to component (i think) dongle to plug into the sc. the reason i want a dedicated component connection is i have a really nice component cable and hate the idea of the adapter dongle bottleneck.

[jcPanny]

One advantage of a nice PC sound card would be playback of lossless audio files at 24-bit / 96kHz resolution to your receiver (assuming your receiver supports it). Some also decode formats like DVD-A in addition to Dolby and DTS.

Concerning the video cable, you should be able to get an inexpensive adapter to convert from VGA to component video. Svideo is inferior quality to component so an adapter from s-video to component would still have s-video quality.

[Spiffyfast]

thanks for the encouraging reply!

i don't suppose you could try outputting a dolby digital signal from your htpc?

geforce 6600 and up include a s-video to component (i think) dongle to plug into the sc. the reason i want a dedicated component connection is i have a really nice component cable and hate the idea of the adapter dongle bottleneck.

i don't think its s-video to component, on the graphics card, at least on mine, it is a proprietery plug that can output svideo or component, and there are two seperate adapters that i plug into the graphics card for each. it will output hdtv to my tv no problem, works great for music videos during parties

[redshifter]

to be clear, what i am after is analog component video.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_video
not digital hdtv component video.

[doomguardian]

Creative's Sound Blaster 2 and XFI line up offer superb sound quality.

http://www.soundblaster.com/

If you want to order one go here: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16829102188

Or if you live in Canada: http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1618860&CatId=107

Or you can just simply pick one up at Future Shop/Best Buy/Circuit City.

[kleinwl]

None of the cards I know of do component.


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16815116625


A Hauppauge PVR-150 will do normal TV very well. Composite and S-Video only.

MPEG2 record datarates:
2MBit/sec, 4MBit/sec, 6Mbit/sec, 8Mbit/sec, 12Mbit/sec.
Selections for DVD Standard play (8MBitsec), DVD Long Play (4MBit/sec) and DVD Extra Long Play (2.5MBit/sec)
NTSC format* at 29.97fps: Full D1: 720x480, MPEG1: 352x240
PAL format* at 25fps: Full D1: 720x576, MPEG1: 352x288
Audio capture formats: 32/44.1/48 KHz, 16bit stereo, 192/224/384Kbits/sec
Video digitizer: 10 bits
Chroma sampling: YUV 4:2:2
Four line adaptive comb filter for both NTSC and PAL to remove dot crawl
Fast video locking for security camera applications
Video file format: .MPG
MPEG file tested compatible with: MediaStudio 6.0, MyDVD and DVD MovieFactory DVD authoring applications

[redshifter]

here is an adapter that converts vga to analog component:
http://www.datapro.net/products/CSV-925B.html
does anyone have any experience with these?

[Sheep]

In response to the sound card question,

On board audio uses up CPU resources. Having the sound card will work better for gaming and other things that use up lots of processing.

Also, there is better EAX support on sound cards.

SheepStar

[Spiffyfast]

here is an adapter that converts vga to analog component:
http://www.datapro.net/products/CSV-925B.html
does anyone have any experience with these?

you don't need that, just get something like this for your graphics card

http://www.ati.com/products/radeon9600/aiw2006/index.html

now you have your graphics card, you have a tv-card with dvr capabilities and it can output component video

[doomguardian]

In response to the sound card question,

On board audio uses up CPU resources. Having the sound card will work better for gaming and other things that use up lots of processing.

Also, there is better EAX support on sound cards.

SheepStarNot to mention the CPU creates electrical noise - which leads to muddier sound quality.

You can only get a maximum of EAX 2.0 on all other CPUs and sound cards, Creative's line up serves up to EAX 5.0 Advanced HD.

[Naves74]

Here is an inexpensive solution to your component video problem

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&kw=OPVGATRCAA&is=REG&Q=&O=productlist&sku=353561
For $30 and it will be at component quality and you can still use your nice cable.

For the sound card as sheep has said I would go with a stand alone PCI sound card and not use the one on the mother board just becuase you are executing more cpu computations to do something that the card can do itself. So for games, DVR NTSC playback and possibly HD your computer would be running full blast if you dont have a card (ie. more noise, power consumption and lower quality video and audio.)

[Methost]

thanks for the encouraging reply!

i don't suppose you could try outputting a dolby digital signal from your htpc?



I can try this when I get home ... and report back

[redshifter]

how could the onboard soundcard introduce noise or cpu usage if it is only passing through the digital pcm or bitstream from the tuner card or dvd drive to the reciever? all the processing is done by the tuner card, dvd drive, and reciever.

i'm not against using a soundcard. for this budget pc i'm not convinced it is needed.

[jonnythan]

thanks for the encouraging reply!

i don't suppose you could try outputting a dolby digital signal from your htpc?

geforce 6600 and up include a s-video to component (i think) dongle to plug into the sc. the reason i want a dedicated component connection is i have a really nice component cable and hate the idea of the adapter dongle bottleneck.
Adapter dongle bottleneck? What does that even mean?

Most, if not all, current Geforce cards output component video. Straight up.

The connector on the back of the card *looks* like S-video, but it's not. It has 6 extra pins on the connector... two each for the three component cables.

It's real component, not S-video -> component.

My 6800GS outputs perfect 720p to my plasma TV, and the onboard Toslink connector (on my Biostar Tforce 939 motherboard) outputs perfect Dolby Digital and DTS (100% noise-free) to my receiver.

[redshifter]

Adapter dongle bottleneck? What does that even mean?

let me clarify: the dongle is an adapter using wires. these wires are of lowest quality usually, which represents a quality bottleneck between htpc and the component cable. think of it this way: you have a great tv, and a great home theater, but your source is a mono vcr. the vcr is the bottleneck in your system.

i do not want to get in a discussion of the impact of cables on analog a/v quality. i'm convinced cables make a difference and i have found the point of diminishing marginal returns. my concern is a WIRED ADAPTER (dongle) will impact video quality. i and willing to go with a dongle but would prefer not to (like naves' suggestion). thx!

[kleinwl]

another point for an independent sound card:
1) Better Dacs / higher bit-rate processing / higher number of voices possible
(a card like the X-treme music is much better than a normal Realtek sound chip - however the audio HD chips are fairly good)

Another point for an independent TV tuner like Hauppaugn
1) Built in hardware accelleration - ATI/Nvidia cards are software only for video capture / playback. In order to use them effectivelly without dropping frames you need a fairly powerful cpu.
2)Hauppaugn has low cost dual cards, so that you can capture two stream of information at once (ie record two channels), which isn't possible on an ATI/Nvidia card

[jonnythan]

let me clarify: the dongle is an adapter using wires. these wires are of lowest quality usually, which represents a quality bottleneck between htpc and the component cable. think of it this way: you have a great tv, and a great home theater, but your source is a mono vcr. the vcr is the bottleneck in your system.

i do not want to get in a discussion of the impact of cables on analog a/v quality. i'm convinced cables make a difference and i have found the point of diminishing marginal returns. my concern is a WIRED ADAPTER (dongle) will impact video quality. i and willing to go with a dongle but would prefer not to (like naves' suggestion). thx!
You put way too much faith into the quality of your expensive wires.

The dongle will make *absolutely no* impact on what you see on the screen. I have a 25' component cable going from my PC to my plasma. Everything is pixel-perfect at 720p. The quality of the image when viewing anything - even small text - is identical to when I used HDMI.

Plugging component cables directly into your video card is the answer. You already have everything you need.

BTW, if you end up using some sort of VGA -> component adapter, you're doing the exact same thing. "cheap" connections, "cheap" monitor cable, etc.

[redshifter]

jonnythan
thanks! i guess i'll see for myself soon. again, i'm not interested in opening the interconnects can of worms here. we all have our opinions, and what works for us.

back to audio:
i would prefer to use the dac's in my reciever. they are 24/96 dac's and i'm content with the sound in my ht. if i wanted upgraded sound quality, i would invest in a hi-rez $300 sound card, which would blow my budget.

sorry if i'm beating a dead horse, but i have not gotten an answer yet on this:
can i output raw pcm and bitstream data to my reciever for decoding from dvd, hd media, tv tuner sources on the htpc?

[Spiffyfast]

sorry if i'm beating a dead horse, but i have not gotten an answer yet on this:
can i output raw pcm and bitstream data to my reciever for decoding from dvd, hd media, tv tuner sources on the htpc?

yeah you can output pcm or bitstream, but you have to find a sound card that has dolby digital live built in, there was a thread on this a few months ago can't seem to find it right now, but yes there is a way

[jonnythan]

A $300 sound card will *not* improve your sound quality if you're using a digital output. A $300 sound card will output the same bitstream as the one built into my motherboard.

[jonnythan]

Dolby Digital Live encodes Dolby Digital on the fly from any kind of source you want. Without this, your PC will output whatever the source is.. DD from DVD's, 2-channel digital audio from an MP3 file, etc etc. Which is fine.

[redshifter]

A $300 sound card will *not* improve your sound quality if you're using a digital output. A $300 sound card will output the same bitstream as the one built into my motherboard.
thanks man, i know. bits are bits.

and thanks for answering one of my questions, jonnythan. i'll try the one-piece vga-comp adapter, and go straight out the modo and decode with the denon.

now i'm sold on the 300gb drive, and want to use this case ($45) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811119088

thanks for the mobo and cpu reco's, but what are the lowest requirements for playing dvd's, recording tv, recording dvd's, mp3, etc., without games or any other intensive operations? bare minimum or minimum + 10% (considering xp pro or mce05).

[jonnythan]

Out of curiosity, what's the difference between the dongle and the vga-comp adapter? If anything the dongle probably has higher quality wiring and more solid connections.

[kleinwl]

Bluegear produces a sound card with Dolby. BTW these aren't $300 sound cards.... only ~$100.

Bare minimium (YMMV) is:
AMD Sempron (754 socket) 2600+ ($70)
512MB Ram
Hauppauge card (PVR-150)

However, if you don't want the advantage of on-board compression hardware available in a hauppauge card... then I would boost up the cpu capability by:
a) Overclocking the sempron
b) Buying an Athelon 2800+

According to designtecnica's review they could run with a xp1600+ cpu however usage was 50%-80%

However, if you ever want to capture HD tv or H264, the current capture cards require alot of cpu capability and I would recommend a dual core (X2) to prevent stuttering.

Because a standard (ATI all in wonder / Nvidia) video card does all the video capture in software, cpu requirements will be higher.

See anandtech review of tv tuners:http://www.anandtech.com/multimedia/showdoc.aspx?i=2634

[redshifter]

Out of curiosity, what's the difference between the dongle and the vga-comp adapter? If anything the dongle probably has higher quality wiring and more solid connections.
the adapter appears to use only hardware connections. there are no wires.

i have not done any comparisons, nor seen any online of different vga adapters. i don't know which is better, or if the video quality is on-par or better with a good dvd component out. it's been my experience that those adapters that use a wire (the "dongle" style) degrade the signal.

thanks, kleinwl!! i should have mentioned i'm also sold on the hauppauge card. it seems to be the way to go. will i still need a dual core to support hdtv with that card?

[redshifter]

ok, here is what i've got. add misc. costs, the system comes in at around us$600:

MOBO
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813138268
$60

CPU
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819104245
$75

RAM 1g
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820145440
$72

TUNER CARD
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16815116625
$90

VIDEO CARD
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814130003
$77

CASE
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811119088
$45

300g HD
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148064
$100

FANS
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811999071
$15

PSU
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817104954
$51

[jonnythan]

Excellent system. Same Motherboard I have. It comes with a digital coax and optical output. Sounds great.

[kleinwl]

System Review:

A couple of questions first:

What kind of games (if any) to you intend on playing with this system?

If the answer is none... delete the video card... the mobo you chose already has an integrated video card. If the answer is "it varies" look at another mobo without integrated video... why pay for what you don't use.

What kind of DVD player are you putting in? NEC-1350 or Benq DW-1650 are good DVD-RW

What kind of OS are you running? XP? MCE? Lunix (Distro?)?

Statements:
First) Why go with a standard case for a http? A rackmount will look better in your equipement case and be quieter (may be more expensive)

Second) Why go with cool master? Antec provides excellent budget cases that have very good cooling and good psus. (btw that Forton is way over kill... unless you intend on maxing out that palmero).

Third) Are you considering noise as an issue? While AMD cpu coolers are good... there are superior cooling solutions out there (such as thermaltake's XP-90). Along the same lines, why use 80mm cooling fans, 120mm (undervolted or controlled with cool'n'quiet) move more air with less noise. (see silentpcreview.com for more information).

Fourth) Anandtech's review showed that the real HD capture cards (MPEG-4) require more cpu time than MPEG-2 capture... the X2 is a nice step up... but, if you are unwilling to invest $300 in a cpu, I understand, just OC the heck out of the palmero you buy (the XP-90 and Artic Silver-5 thermopaste will be really helpful here - make sure you get a different mobo that Biostar isn't known for it's OC ability.

:Shameless Plug: I'm a licensed computer builder in CA if need someone to build that for you... or if you just want some advice on OCing... fan/specs/whatever:

[Hi Ho]

I would go with a different motherboard. Biostar isn't exactly noted for their quality. Your other components are very good quality. There's no reason to skimp on the motherboard, especially when you can get an Asus K8N (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131512) for the same price.

I see no problems with the case you chose. It is a nice case and CoolerMaster makes decent stuff. I like my CoolerMaster case. It's quiet and cool.

The stock AMD coolers are quite noisy. I would upgrade to THIS (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835118112) Zalman unit. It will keep the CPU plenty cool and it will be very quiet.

[3beanlimit]

No one has mentioned it yet.

If you like DTS music files..from DTS encoded CD's, your going to need a card that can use ASIO drivers to avoid getting upsampled. Typical of most sound cards to do upsampling to 48 kHz. Sucks big dognots to be sure. Creative is famous for this.

Same goes for trying to stream DTS or Dolby Digital. Ture, that Bluegears will send out a Dolby Digital stream or even a DTS stream, but keep in mind, it's a reprocessed signal. At least untill they come out with promised ASIO drivers.

That said, I have the Bluegears DTS card. It upsamples to 96 kHz. I'm using Foobar set to 24bit and IMHO, the 96 kHz upsampler is pretty dang good for flac files ripped from CD's.

[redshifter]

...

Same goes for trying to stream DTS or Dolby Digital. Ture, that Bluegears will send out a Dolby Digital stream or even a DTS stream, but keep in mind, it's a reprocessed signal. At least untill they come out with promised ASIO drivers...
i'm not planning on using a sound card, just the raw pcm and bitstream data from the mobo.

[jonnythan]

Well, the motherboard simply has a cheap sound card built into it. There's nothing different with the built-in sound card and a cheap add-on sound card.

[jonnythan]

I would go with a different motherboard. Biostar isn't exactly noted for their quality.
This motherboard is an exception. It's an overclocker's board that's built very solidly and is known to overclock very stably up to 300MHz FSB. There are no quality issues with this board. Trust me. It's very popular in the overclocker community because it's so good.

The Asus you linked to is an old POS compared to the Biostar.

Also, for an inexpensive option, the Arctic Cooling Silencer 64 is a dead-silent CPU fan that's only $20.

[jmprader]

Pardon my momentary hijack of this thread, but some of you guys seem to have your PC HT knowledge down a lot better than this tech dinosaur (think "this guy's first computer must have been an Apple 2+ with a 1mhz 8 bit 6502 processor, dual floppies and 64k memory", ok?!)

I'm interested in knowing what info any of you might be able to provide on:
1. 1080i or 1080p output capable DVD drives (not Blu-Ray or HD-DVD) that might be out there...I don't even know if today's standard DVD drive can output 1080i/p content, that's how archaic I am. :confused:
2. 1080i or 1080p capable A/V cards, preferably with HDMI, but DVI with digital or ieee1394 outs are just great, too.
3. Any processor speed/available memory/op system caveats for using the foregoing? Currently we've got a Dell 4550 and E310 around the house, one with XP, one with XP media center.

If I'm a little off track, any help to set me straight is appreciated. Sorry to interrupt, just hoping for some help for the mentally aged and infirm in tech land.:o

[Topher]

I'm looking into building an HTPC also & have a question about audio. I'm going to hook it up to a satellite receiver that has optical & coax output, but the Hauppauge 150MCE only has analogue audio input. I don't imagine it's possible to record AC3, but I don't know of any soundcards that pass it through, either. Is it possible to at least pass it through, or am I going to have to do without Dolby Digital?

[Hi Ho]

Same goes for trying to stream DTS or Dolby Digital. Ture, that Bluegears will send out a Dolby Digital stream or even a DTS stream, but keep in mind, it's a reprocessed signal. At least untill they come out with promised ASIO drivers.
Many sound cards will stream DD and DTS when playing a DVD. This goes for the Creative models as well.

The only advantage the Bluegears cards have is that they will stream a Dolby Digital signal when playing a game. There are very few cards that will do this.

[kleinwl]

I see no problems with the case you chose. It is a nice case and CoolerMaster makes decent stuff. I like my CoolerMaster case. It's quiet and cool.

No question... Coolmaster is a decient case manufacture. The point I was making is that a Rackmount Case would look better (WAF) in the rack. I do like Antec, because of the high quality of the power supply that comes with their mini-tower. There is generally no need to replace the PSU, where I would be very hesitant of using any PSU that came with a coolermaster.

To answer the hijack thread about DVDs... 1080P/720P/480i has not a thing to do with the DVD player. The only thing a DVD does is transport the file. if you encode a MPEG-4 / H264 codec at 1080P on a DVD (which will be short given the small space available on a DVD).... whatever will play fine. However no computer player is available yet for HD-DVD or Blueray... and the first players out will be expensive (along with the disks).

(Note: I'm assuming that your copying the file to the HTTP's HDD, otherwise 1080P bitstream could be to high to be supported by the DVD's read rate.)

I'm not sure how to answer your A/V question on cards. ATI 1800 series and Nvidia's 7800 & 7900 series have H264 accelleration built in (at least with the latest drivers) so that you coded H264 / MPEG-4 stream will play nicely. You just need sufficent cpu/ram/GPU that you don't experience stutter. Typically play back isn't the hard part... recording/encoding is what pushes the machine.
BTW: Most video cards have DVI now... so that isn't a problem.


I can't find the specs for a Dell 4550 or E310... so you will have to tell me what CPU/RAM/GPU is in it. However, I would expect that if your cpu is slower than 2.0GHz, there is little chance of you encoding H264 at 1080P realtime.

BTW: My first computer was an Apple II (I thought the IIe was awesome.. so much smaller/lighter). So what are you talking about tech dinosaur?

[redshifter]

got you both beat. my first computer was the commodore pet. although i adored my apple ][e too.

[Hi Ho]

No question... Coolmaster is a decient case manufacture. The point I was making is that a Rackmount Case would look better (WAF) in the rack. I do like Antec, because of the high quality of the power supply that comes with their mini-tower. There is generally no need to replace the PSU, where I would be very hesitant of using any PSU that came with a coolermaster.
I agree that CoolerMaster PSU's should be avoided. Most don't come with a PSU though. I always think of a case as personal preference. Unless it's a really, really bad case it's hard to go wrong with one based on looks. It's almost always necassary, however, to replace the PSU. How do manufacturers get away with producing such crap PSU's? Some can even catch fire!

[jonnythan]

Pardon my momentary hijack of this thread, but some of you guys seem to have your PC HT knowledge down a lot better than this tech dinosaur (think "this guy's first computer must have been an Apple 2+ with a 1mhz 8 bit 6502 processor, dual floppies and 64k memory", ok?!)

I'm interested in knowing what info any of you might be able to provide on:
1. 1080i or 1080p output capable DVD drives (not Blu-Ray or HD-DVD) that might be out there...I don't even know if today's standard DVD drive can output 1080i/p content, that's how archaic I am. :confused:
Any DVD drive, coupled with a graphics card with HDTV out (most of them these days have this) like a Geforce 6800GS will allow you to use your computer to upscale the DVD content to 1080i or 720p.
2. 1080i or 1080p capable A/V cards, preferably with HDMI, but DVI with digital or ieee1394 outs are just great, too.
Not sure exactly what you're asking, but most video cards today have two outputs - generally one VGA/RGB and one DVI. Some have 2 DVI, etc. These DVI ports are physically compatible with HDMI - it's easy to buy a cable that has HDMI at one end and DVI at the other. Adapters are also cheap. These ports are perfectly happy running at 1280x720 or 1920x1080

[Topher]

The computer I'm going to be using has optical & coax digital out on the mobo (an MSI K7N2 Delta-L), but there's no digital-in on it or the Hauppauge 150MCE.
Is it possible to record, or at least pass through the dolby digital signal from either a satellite receiver or a cable box? The OP mentioned an analogue connection from the cable box to his HTPC.

[kleinwl]

The computer I'm going to be using has optical & coax digital out on the mobo (an MSI K7N2 Delta-L), but there's no digital-in on it or the Hauppauge 150MCE.
Is it possible to record, or at least pass through the dolby digital signal from either a satellite receiver or a cable box? The OP mentioned an analogue connection from the cable box to his HTPC.

M-Audio produces the Revolution 5.1 (or 7.1) for $100. It has a 24 bit/96 KHz line in for recording. It also supports PCM, A3D, DTS, & Dolby Digital.

Run the signal from the receiver or cable box into the Revolution line-in. Note: I have done this successfully with TV tuner cards... but not tried it on satellite boxes... however I don't see why they would be any different.

BTW: there are a number of sound card with line-in so don't feel forced into a M-audio. Turtle Beach and others are also reasonable alternatives. Go check on newegg.com

[kleinwl]

I agree that CoolerMaster PSU's should be avoided. Most don't come with a PSU though. I always think of a case as personal preference. Unless it's a really, really bad case it's hard to go wrong with one based on looks. It's almost always necassary, however, to replace the PSU. How do manufacturers get away with producing such crap PSU's? Some can even catch fire!

The same way anything else is produced.. If you make enough profit to pay off the lawsuits then you stay in buisness... otherwise... not.

To be honest though... even the $1.99 PSUs shipped with a cheapo case are good enough to power an office computer (at least for a while :o )... just don't try to run more than a 150W off of the ULTRA 800W PSU that came with your $40 case.

[jmprader]

...(Note: I'm assuming that your copying the file to the HTTP's HDD, otherwise 1080P bitstream could be to high to be supported by the DVD's read rate.)

I can't find the specs for a Dell 4550 or E310...

BTW: My first computer was an Apple II (I thought the IIe was awesome.. so much smaller/lighter). So what are you talking about tech dinosaur?

Thanks for helping. I think I get it on the DVD side...users would more likely be copying the HD material from DVD to their HDD then "on with the show". That makes sense. The card info is appreciated, too, I got somewhat confused reading the marketing material for several. probably due to suspicions from all the doubletalk regarding true resolutions in the DLP marketing materials and ability to accept/output 1080i/p based material.

Our Dell's should work, the older CPU is @ 2.4 as I recall, the E310 is @ 2.8.

Ok, you trumped me, the II came first, but did you ever use a cassette player to upload your applesoft programs? Geez, I remember my z-80 card, paged memory, 300 baud modem and "Visi-Calc"..I was the envy of my MBA class...until one guy got an IBM PC...

Thanks again for your help.

-minor content edit-

[redshifter]

The same way anything else is produced.. If you make enough profit to pay off the lawsuits then you stay in buisness... otherwise... not.

To be honest though... even the $1.99 PSUs shipped with a cheapo case are good enough to power an office computer (at least for a while :o )... just don't try to run more than a 150W off of the ULTRA 800W PSU that came with your $40 case.
the coolmaster case i chose does not come with a psu.

if you read my previous post, here is the psu i chose:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817104954

[kleinwl]

the coolmaster case i chose does not come with a psu.

if you read my previous post, here is the psu i chose:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817104954

I understand, I was just suggesting the Fortan and coolmaster case was not the most cost efficent option. The Antec SLK1650B comes with decient 350W PSU all for $57. (newegg). If you wish the Coolmaster for style, etc... then that is, of course, your preference.

However, the point that I kept making, and at this point is obviously a non-starter, is that I do not recommend a mid-tower at all for a HTPC. I find that it is much more astically pleasing to purchase a rack-mount case and use that instead. I also recommend a wireless keyboard/mouse as the interface (for obvious reasons).

Edit - additional note -
One of the things that I find that people don't consider when first putting together a HTPC is noise. The average PC is noisy... and it is a real irritant when watching a movie or lisening to music. One of the things that I highly suggest when building an HTPC is thinking about what can be done to lower the noise from the machine.

1) The most critical is the case itself. Since airflow management is key in keeping temperatures reasonable, the case design will make or break your noise floor by allowing you to keep fans running slowly... or forcing you to up them to extreme levels. The other point in a good case, is some have HDD isolators, Noise suppression coatings, and other features to keep your case quiet.

2) The second most critical are the fans. oversizing and undervolting is a tried and true way of keeping airflow up, but lowering fan noise. The noise generated from a fan is normally generated at the fan tip and directly proportional to fan tip speed. However, CFM is also directly proportional to fan size.... so larger fans running at lower speeds are generally quieter (at the same CFM) as smaller fans running at higher speed. Similarly a good cpu cooler will be more efficent in keeping the cpu temperatures at reasonable levels allowing for lower fan speed.

3) Heat generation. AMD cpus are generally running cooler than intel cpus (with the exception of the moble P-M and Core duo). Running an AMD cpu undervolted/underclocked can help reduce the heat generated by the PC and thus lower the airflow necessary to keep temperatures low. Seasonic PSUs are also higher efficency PSUs than standard, this means that they give off less waste heat converting AC to DC for the computer... again allowing for lower speed fans. The other point is that Asus has come out with a mobo (MVP32) that has more regulators than normal for the cpu... that means conversion to cpu voltage is more efficent and again heat generated is lower.

4) The last point is the most questionable because it directly effects component life. There is a thermal envelope that the cpu and system has been designed at. The higher the temperature that you let your system heat up to (within the envelope) the higher the heat flux from your machine to the enviroment will be. In other words, let you pc heat up by throttling fans, etc and let the case itself radiate heat to the enviroment. Yes your machine will be hot to the touch. Yes you will be lowering the lifespan of the PC... but you will be rewarded with the quietest machine around, because for each CFM you flow out, more joules of waste energy will be exhausted... I highly suggest being careful with this... but the termal managment options built into BIOS will allow you to take advantage of this natural flux.

[kleinwl]

Our Dell's should work, the older CPU is @ 2.4 as I recall, the E310 is @ 2.8.

Ok, you trumped me, the II came first, but did you ever use a cassette player to upload your applesoft programs? Geez, I remember my z-80 card, paged memory, 300 baud modem and "Visi-Calc"..I was the envy of my MBA class...until one guy got an IBM PC...



Wow... a cassette player... that would have been awesome! I was stuck with a whole bunch of 5.25" floppies. My favorite moment was the day I stuck my floppy holder in the back seat and set off for class... by the time I got back they were are visably warped... oh well... at least they were still useful as freebees!

One of the things I would be careful about Dell's is that they always have pretty good processor specs... but everything else sucks! Make sure they have at least 512MB of ram (preferrably 1GB). Most DDR / DDR-II ram is cheap and easy to install. If you still have Rambus-RAM, your stuck. Rambus-RAM is still hundreds of dollars for 512MB. The other check point is the video card which we already talked about.

[redshifter]

kleinwl
wow, great info.

i chose the microatx coolmaster case because the media pc cases were all overpriced, and i intend to have the pc upright next to the tv on the cabinet. the case matches the silver/black components in my ht too.

[Topher]

kleinwl, thanks for the info, it's good to know I won't have to sacrifice DD surround.

[kleinwl]

kleinwl
wow, great info.

i chose the microatx coolmaster case because the media pc cases were all overpriced, and i intend to have the pc upright next to the tv on the cabinet. the case matches the silver/black components in my ht too.


I understand completely. Rack mount or HTPC cases are more expensive. If you run two 80mm panflow fans (The centurion only allows 120mm intake) and undervolt them to ~8V they should be nice and quiet (you can stage the turn on with a good fan controller). Or just run one 80mm panflow (they are good for 21 CFM @ 12V).

I recommend an aftermarket cpu cooler such as the XP-120 (I didn't check clearances on the mobo... so check that first) or zalman 9500 to keep CPU temp in check.

The max thermal envelope (from AMD) on a sempron is 70C. Due to variablity in Motherboard thermal couples, I recommend keeping the cpu at least 10C below the thermal envelope. ie. at 60C. Use the cool'n'quiet fan management to run full at 60C and throttle off at 50C. This will allow you to consistantly keep your CPU at ~55C or so... which is higher than normal... but it minimizes fan noise. A pretty normal CPU temp is ~ 45C.

You can also switch your hard drive to silent mode (on some models) which will reduce the hdd speed slightly, but also decrease the noise (if you notice it).

Again, if you use temperature management to keep cpu noise in check be certain to check that the mobo's north/southbridge is within specifications, otherwise you will have to increase you case air flow.

Thanks for the complements!

[kleinwl]

Question:

For all you guys that had questions about HTPCs. Do you think that audioholic readers would be interested in purchasing custom built HTPCs?

ie. Would it be worth the time/expense to build an HTPC and ask Gene to review it?

If the answer is yes... what would be an reasonable price point for such a system? I have in mind a $1500 system that is well configured rack mount with both gaming and general a/v in mind.

Thanks for the feedback!

-Note: if this post is against the forum rules please disregard.