need bookshelf recommend

[soundhound]

great forum! i've been reading all day, but now i'm overloaded and thought i would just ask for some recommendations. :p

i have some energy C-3s that just aren't doing it for me. they sound great to me when listening to individual parts of the overall sound, but the whole doesn't seem to be equal to the sum of the parts. to me they sound overly "rich" and too flat, like a slab of marble or something hovering 1 inch in front of the speaker. i hear no soundstage or transparency at all.

i came across the audioholics review of the C6, and it actually described what i hear with the C3s almost perfectly:

...we found their weakest point to be their overall sound quality, which seemed too laid back and sterile. ...

The C6 just didn't do it for us. It's overall sound was mellow, unrevealing and muddy in the midrange and somewhat forward and stingent in the highs. Instead of voices sounding vibrant, dynamic and real, they sounded dull, ordinary and just plain boring.

i realize they're not the same speaker, but it is the same company, same engineering, etc. and that's exactly how i feel about the C-3: too laid back and sterile, muffled and unrevealing in the midrange, voices sound dull and lifeless, almost recessed. again, when listening to individual details, they sound okay. but as the review said, the overall sound quality is too sterile, or (in my words) monolithic. the sound never really seems to come alive or have any 3-dimensionality to it. at this point, i've come to almost dread turning them on, i'm finding them fatiguing and almost painful to listen to in a weird kind of way.

so now i think i need speakers that are more lively and forward sounding, although not necessarily meaning too bright. everything i've read about the paradigm studio 20 says that is the speaker for me, but it is a little outside my budget -- i'd like to spend no more than $400 a pair, b/c i still need a center channel. i've also seen people mention NHT and PSB, both of which possibly look interesting, but i don't know of anywhere to demo them around here. ascend, which originally i was considering, now just looks like more of the same i'm getting with the energies.

as i said, i'm a bit overwhelmed. can anyone give me any pointers or recommendations? i really wanted to like the C-3s, but no matter how much i try i just can't "talk myself into it." i definitely need more "liveliness," soundstage and airy transparency. it seems like there should be something suitable in my price range, i'm just not sure where to look at this point. thanks!

[JennAir]

What percentage HT vs. music?
Do you use a sub for music?
What type of music and how loud?

[soundhound]

thanks JennAir, i knew i was leaving stuff out. :p

i'd say it's about 60% HT/tv to 40% music. i listen to about 50% jazz and classical, 50% alternative, classic rock, and miscellaneous (including chill-out, ambient, etc.). i have a low-end velodyne sub, but it suits my needs pretty well right now as it seems fairly musical. i'm eyeing an SVS eventually, but right now i just want to get my front end set up. i have a yahama receiver, btw, 7.1 htr-5860, if that info also helps. thanks :)

[JennAir]

I think I can relate to your dilemma. When shopping the retail stores I was terribly dissapointed in what's available for under $1000 a pair. You're right; lifeless, flat, no air, small soundstage, blah.

Being partial to what I own I'll start there.

http://www.us.alegriaaudio.com/RosaLCR.htm
I know you said $400 a pair but you also said you need a center so maybe, like me, you can use the Rosa for your front three and still be within budget.

Next would be these:
http://www.us.alegriaaudio.com/Ling.htm
and the Rosa for a center.

My third recommendation would be:
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cbm170/cbm170.html
I know you said they look like more of the same but in comparison with what I've auditioned in the under $500 range in the retail stores they are quite different. I didn't buy them because when Eva Cassidy hit a high note it pierced through my brain but this may be the ticket for you if you're looking for something brighter than your current set up. Just because the graph shows it's flat doesn't tell you how it sounds. Obviously there are a lot of people that like this sound.

After that I'd think about looking at AV123.

Yes, these are all Internet direct retailers. That's because, in the price range you're considering I've not heard anything in the retail stores for under $500 that's as good as any I've listed.

[3x10^8]

Just one question: How long have been listening to them????

[3x10^8]

Sorry, actually one more question: what are you using to drive them (receiver)?

[nm2285]

I've heard the C3s and enjoyed them because i prefer a very flat and neutral sound. I think maybe Axioms are right up your alley?

[soundhound]

i've been listening to the C-3s for almost a week non-stop, from the time i get home until i go to bed, and all this weekend. they're just not there for me. maybe i have too much damage from years of playing guitar in rock bands, but the energies do not really sound "live" to me, but more like a blanket is often between the performers and me. again, it's a weird phenomenon, b/c when i focus on the individual instruments or parts, they often sound quite good, actually, if not great. but when i listen to the presentation *as a whole,* it's like it never really meshes together and ends up sounding too laid back and flat. or sometimes with movies i get the impression that dialog just seems to get kind of lost or muddied, even though it's also distinct. it's like i have to keep turning up the volume just to hear what should be coming through the mix easily.

those lings look interesting. 3 of those across the front or 2 plus an emma might work, if they have the "right sound." i've never heard of them, but the testimonials look promising. would you say they have an "open" sound? i.e., airy with good soundstage? what kind of components do you have driving them? also, how do they compare to the ascends? supposedly the ascend was compared to the C-3 when it first came on the scene, which is why i am now a little wary of it. i also don't have hundreds to blow on return shipping, so i want to try to be as sure as possible before taking the plunge again.

[soundhound]

I've heard the C3s and enjoyed them because i prefer a very flat and neutral sound. I think maybe Axioms are right up your alley?

hmm, i wonder. i have just started looking at those, and it seems like they might work. i've read people saying they have "recessed mids" though, and aren't good for jazz or classical, two of the genres i listen to most. ? maybe they're worth a shot?

also, when there's like a musical or orchestral surging or "sweeping" sound in a movie, for example (hard to describe), the energies sound fantastic. then it goes back to muddied dialog and a sort of bass heavy, flat sound that doesn't seem lifelike or dynamic at all. i really want to like these, but for some reason they're not working for me. it's very frustrating. :mad: :p

@3x10^8 - driving with yamaha htr-5860 home theater rcvr. i hate the sound of these entry level HT receivers (very crappy, imho - next time i'm getting separates :cool: ), so i have the front channels pre-amped to a nad 7020e, which fills out the thin sound very nicely. i've also pre-amped through an old sony str-av receiver, which also sounded surprisingly good, and some denon 2-channel rcvr that blew so i sent it back. no matter which one, they all sound better than just straight through the HT receiver, though, which by itself is unlistenable (also tried entry level onkyo and a panasonic digital receiver -- all unlistenable, which is why i got the yamaha, for the pre-outs :cool: ). thanks.

[3x10^8]

Although I can't promise you that this may be the problem (and I'm sure many will disagree with me as it is a "controversial" issue), but I believe it may be an issue of speaker break-in, and I can directly relate to what you're talking about. After I initially purchased my XL-250's, I was like, "what the hell!!!! These things sound like absolute crap." To be more precise, they sounded just as you described, flat and neutral. And you hit the point home when you mentioned that they sound as if a blanket sits between you and the speaker and that the sound just does not mesh well together.

I was really disappointed in the way my XL-250's sounded at first and was about to take them back, until another energy owner urged me to be patient. He told me to keep listening for a few weeks and to really push the speakers. Long story short, I did, and am so grateful to him. After several weeks of listening, the speakers really opened up, the soundstage emerged. Now, they sound truly phenomenol!

Finally, a bit more relevant to your concerns, my brother purchased a full system of c-3's and the c-1 center at my recommendation. Yet again, the same issue emerged and he was extremely disappointed... I urged him to do the same as I had and trust that the speakers would eventually reveal their true potential... What do you know, he now couldn't be happier. I've spoken to so many other energy owners who have had the same exact experience.

I understand that different folk have differing listening preferences, but nonetheless, the C-3 is truly an amazing speaker... in my opinion, one of the best at its price point. Try them out for a bit longer. What's your return policy. Keep them until the last day, and until then, push them hard. You have nothing to lose; in fact you'd be saving on return shipping. I'm almost certain that eventually they will give you exactly what you were looking for.

[Pianoman84d]

From what you said about liking a "live" sound (if I may paraphrase you), it seems that you might want to go listen to the Klipsch reference series. The RB-25 was featured in the Budget Bookshelf IV review earlier this year for under $300. Now, I don't have them but it seems you might like them.

Another couple of speakers to look at are the Onix X-LS, Axiom m22 (as the Axioms have been said to favorably compete with the Paradigm Studio Series), and the Ascend Acoustics.

In the interest of full disclosure, check my sig. and my recent post in the "write your own review section"

[JennAir]

those lings look interesting. 3 of those across the front or 2 plus an emma might work, if they have the "right sound." i've never heard of them, but the testimonials look promising. would you say they have an "open" sound? i.e., airy with good soundstage? what kind of components do you have driving them? also, how do they compare to the ascends? supposedly the ascend was compared to the C-3 when it first came on the scene, which is why i am now a little wary of it. i also don't have hundreds to blow on return shipping, so i want to try to be as sure as possible before taking the plunge again.

Yes, I would describe them as "open" sounding. They are wonderful to listen to jazz on. A surprisingly wide soundstage with depth too. I did compare them to the Ascends and while the Ascends are very articulate they came off "sterile" to me and like I said, when Eva hits that high note, watch out.
My 2 channel system has a Prima Luna Model 1 and my HT has a HK DPR2005. The only downside to the Ling that I ran into was in the 2 channel setup. I was listening to Monty Meets Sly and Robbie at a pretty high volume and the bass got out of control. This didn't happen with the Rosas. Now that they are in the home theater with the subs I can play them as loud as I want with no trouble at all. I'm happy enough with this setup that I'm looking to dump the old speaks in my 2 channel setup and get a pair of the Emmas although I think I need to hold off spending any more money on audio right now.

[3db]

maybe the symptom your describing isn't the speaker but the room acoustics. Maybe your room is acoustically too dead. Have you looked into this possibilty?

[soundhound]

thanks for all the responses, lots of good directions to go in.

it's true, the room is a bit "dead," with carpet and cloth curtains. it's not too bad, though, at about 15x21 and fairly minimalistic. i've seen much worse.

as for break-in, i'm not really a believer, except perhaps in the sense that a person can become adjusted over time. but with the sort of muffled (or flat) midrange detail i'm hearing now, i'm not sure i *want* to adjust to that. i think i read that energy "breaks in" all their speakers for a number of hours before selling them anyway, so they should be good. but i do have about 2 more weeks, so it won't hurt to keep them for the full trial, even if just for reference.

now that i have some good recommendations, i think the best thing i can do at this point is allocate a "return shipping" budget, maybe $100, and then demo a few different pairs of speakers. since the editors of this site had the same exact impressions of energy that i had, and they seem to really like axiom, those might be a good fit. also on the short list will be the alegrias, some form of onix, and possibly the ascends, since so many people like them and they were my first choice b4 i got the energies anyway. in the meantime, i also might search outside the area for a paradigm and/or PSB dealer and try to demo what they have. between all of that, i think i'll have satisfied myself that i listened to at least a good cross section of pretty good mid-fi speakers, and it should be easier to decide what to do. thanks for all the advice, feel free to post more if anyone thinks of anything else. appreciate

[speakerman39]

great forum! i've been reading all day, but now i'm overloaded and thought i would just ask for some recommendations. :p

i have some energy C-3s that just aren't doing it for me. they sound great to me when listening to individual parts of the overall sound, but the whole doesn't seem to be equal to the sum of the parts. to me they sound overly "rich" and too flat, like a slab of marble or something hovering 1 inch in front of the speaker. i hear no soundstage or transparency at all.

i came across the audioholics review of the C6, and it actually described what i hear with the C3s almost perfectly:



i realize they're not the same speaker, but it is the same company, same engineering, etc. and that's exactly how i feel about the C-3: too laid back and sterile, muffled and unrevealing in the midrange, voices sound dull and lifeless, almost recessed. again, when listening to individual details, they sound okay. but as the review said, the overall sound quality is too sterile, or (in my words) monolithic. the sound never really seems to come alive or have any 3-dimensionality to it. at this point, i've come to almost dread turning them on, i'm finding them fatiguing and almost painful to listen to in a weird kind of way.

so now i think i need speakers that are more lively and forward sounding, although not necessarily meaning too bright. everything i've read about the paradigm studio 20 says that is the speaker for me, but it is a little outside my budget -- i'd like to spend no more than $400 a pair, b/c i still need a center channel. i've also seen people mention NHT and PSB, both of which possibly look interesting, but i don't know of anywhere to demo them around here. ascend, which originally i was considering, now just looks like more of the same i'm getting with the energies.

as i said, i'm a bit overwhelmed. can anyone give me any pointers or recommendations? i really wanted to like the C-3s, but no matter how much i try i just can't "talk myself into it." i definitely need more "liveliness," soundstage and airy transparency. it seems like there should be something suitable in my price range, i'm just not sure where to look at this point. thanks!
Hey I thought I would chime in on this one. It sounds like to me you would be more than happy with the Polk Rti6's. That is, I have found them to be very lively and quite engaging to say the least. Very open and airy while producing some of the best imaging I have heard for a set of speakers in the less than $400 range. The Rti6's never sounded harsh BUT are a little bit on the brite side of things. Personally, for ht applications this can often be a good thing so to speak. Lastly, I found the Rti6's to be very musical as well. Do yourself a favor and at least give them a listen. Oh btw, the cabinets are not wrapped in vinyl but finsihed with real wood veneering. Good luck in your choice. Be sure to let us know how it all turns out for you.

[silversurfer]

....when Eva hits that high note, watch out.

FWIW, I also love Eva Cassidy. That said, I would not classify any of the Eva Cassidy recordings I have heard as high quality. The high notes are terrible and distorted.

[soundhound]

Rti6s sound good. add another one to the list. :D

[JennAir]

FWIW, I also love Eva Cassidy. That said, I would not classify any of the Eva Cassidy recordings I have heard as high quality. The high notes are terrible and distorted.

What do you think of Imagine?

[silversurfer]

What do you think of Imagine?
If I get a chance, I will check it out this week and let you know. Do you think that is the best of the Eva recordings?

[soundhound]

some things i don't understand about the alegria lings:

1. what exactly is a "supertweeter?"
2. how is it possible to get big sound or bass out of such a relatively small enclosure?

i was reading a review here (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue20/alegrialing.htm), and the author says this:

The Lings do a remarkable impression of floorstanding full-range speakers. They'll be music to the ears of anyone who wants big-box sound in a small room. Their bass tightness might be slightly overpowering in truly tiny spaces, but it could never be considered sloppy or boomy. On No Doubt's Rock Steady (Interscope LP 069493157-1), the thumping "Hella Good" nearly shook loose a few of my fillings....

That leads me to make an obvious recommendation for the Lings—home theater. Hitched to my Sony GX49ES stereo receiver, these shielded monitors made an outstanding case for a simple two-channel movie setup. ...their bass performance was positively room-rattling.

remarkable impression of floorstanders at 12" high? "overpowering" bass performance that was positively "room-rattling?" shaking fillings loose with a 4.5" driver? i don't doubt these are probably good sounding speakers, but do those claims seem a little bit excessive? or is there something unique about the speaker design i don't understand?


btw, before i forget i just want to say for the record that i in no way intended to bash the energies, in case it came across that way. i think they are really great sounding speakers, just maybe not for me. and who knows, maybe at the end of the trial i will have decided to keep them after testing some others. so, i just wanted to clarify that i don't think they are bad speakers at all, only maybe not the best fit for my needs right now.

[JennAir]

If I get a chance, I will check it out this week and let you know. Do you think that is the best of the Eva recordings?

Of the three that I have I like it the best. It's unreleased material that was compiled after her death. Even if you're not impressed with the production I'm betting you'll love the songs.

some things i don't understand about the alegria lings:

1. what exactly is a "supertweeter?"
2. how is it possible to get big sound or bass out of such a relatively small enclosure?

i was reading a review here (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue20/alegrialing.htm), and the author says this:



remarkable impression of floorstanders at 12" high? "overpowering" bass performance that was positively "room-rattling?" shaking fillings loose with a 4.5" driver? i don't doubt these are probably good sounding speakers, but do those claims seem a little bit excessive? or is there something unique about the speaker design i don't understand?

I'm not sure what classifies a tweeter as a supertweeter but I'm guessing it's those with response well beyond the typical 20kHz reference. This is the tweeter in the Lings.
http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_comp/pdf/ft207d.pdf
I think what makes the Lings special is the mid-woofer. The first time I heard them I couldn't believe it was a 4.5" driver. I wouldn't compare them to a 12" woofer but it definitely sounds a lot bigger than it is. Their website has a short explanation of the technology.
http://www.us.alegriaaudio.com/XBL^2Notes.htm

[JennAir]

Just for grins I typed "XBL^2" in Google and found this.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_1/hsu-vtf-3-ho-subwoofer-3-2006-part-1.html

[ggunnell]

I recently replaced some older 6 1/2 two ways with B&W 601's and have been very pleased. Very musical, better midrange and imaging than the x-ls's which I also tried (and which cost about half as much). The B&W's front ported design and about 9" depth including terminals make actual shelf use possible.