CD player a waste of money?

[sksfreund]

I thought I was more of an audiophile than I guess I really am, because I recently bought a Musical Fidelity A3.2 CD player expecting it to be better than my Cambridge Audio D300SE player, but I can't tell a lick of difference between the two. My thought is that a 1600 dollar player should kick a 250 dollar players butt. I have this same thread going on Audiogon, where one guy told me I need to get the player isolated (i.e. on a more solid surface) and that should make a difference. I am asking for everyone's opinion on Audioholics because I believe it is a more truthfull site. I have researched as much as I can, and all I see is that cd players don't sound different if you are using the digital out. I am not, I am using the analog out. Any thoughts?

[highfihoney]

My thought is that a 1600 dollar player should kick a 250 dollar players butt. I have this same thread going on Audiogon, where one guy told me I need to get the player isolated (i.e. on a more solid surface) and that should make a difference. Any thoughts?

in my systems isolating the cd player from vibrations has seemed to make a difference for the better but i have to question the recomendation allready given you,if isolation is causing your new player to sound the same as the old player wouldnt isolating the old player also add the same benifits?

as long as im running good quality cd players the only time i can hear a real difference is when im running one solid state player & one tube player in the same system.

[WmAx]

I thought I was more of an audiophile than I guess I really am, because I recently bought a Musical Fidelity A3.2 CD player expecting it to be better than my Cambridge Audio D300SE player, but I can't tell a lick of difference between the two.

If both devices are operating properly, and were designed to be linear(as opposed to purposeful distortions designed into the unit), then their is no reason for an expensive player to sound different as opposed to a low cost player, given controlled(level matched within 0.1dB) and blinded conditions. Most differences are those due to psychological bias affect(s) upon perception, not actual sound difference(s). In blind tests, people have failed to identify highly regarded audiophile equipment as compared to portable Discmans, when they met the qualifications as I set above.

-Chris

[Hi Ho]

How do you have it connected to your receiver? If you're using the digital connection, all players will sound the same because the D/A converters in your receiver are doing the work.

The difference between CD players lies in their D/A converters and other analog output components. If you aren't using the analog outputs, you are effectively eliminating those advantages.

[sksfreund]

As I said before, I am using the analog outputs, not the digital, and it goes into a Musical Fidelity A3.2 preamp (no D/A converters), so the D/A converters in the cd player are the ones doing the converting. The problem is that the two players don't sound any different even though they are using their own D/A converters.

[WmAx]

As I said before, I am using the analog outputs, not the digital, and it goes into a Musical Fidelity A3.2 preamp (no D/A converters), so the D/A converters in the cd player are the ones doing the converting. The problem is that the two players don't sound any different even though they are using their own D/A converters.

It's not a problem; it just means that both players are operating properly. If they really did sound different, then it would be a problem, as this would mean that one of the units is either malfunctioning or purposely designed to distort the sound.

-Chris

[gene]

My thought is that a 1600 dollar player should kick a 250 dollar players butt. I have this same thread going on Audiogon, where one guy told me I need to get the player isolated (i.e. on a more solid surface) and that should make a difference.

Also if you use cable elevators to lift your cables off the floor and reduce static electricity, it will work wonders:rolleyes:

All kidding aside, save your money and invest in improving your room acoustics. You will go much further with improving your room acoustics than upgrading an already good CD player.

[mtrycrafts]

How do you have it connected to your receiver? .


Where is jaxvon jumping all over you for misreading a post?:D

[mtrycrafts]

[QUOTE=sksfreund]I thought I was more of an audiophile than I guess I really am,

An honest man:D not afraid to admit not being a 'golden ear.' :D

My thought is that a 1600 dollar player should kick a 250 dollar players butt.

The $ensible Sound did a DBT comparison between an $80 RCA carousel player and ones costing $1000s. None of the listeners could differentiate between then.
Historically speaking, most are the same way, popular beliefs not withstanding.:p

I have this same thread going on Audiogon, where one guy told me I need to get the player isolated (i.e. on a more solid surface) and that should make a difference.

Total absurdity unless your CD player is miss tracking due to gross physical vibrations induced having poor flexible floors and lots of jumping by the player.

I am asking for everyone's opinion on Audioholics because I believe it is a more truthfull site.


That it is.

[Hi Ho]

Where is jaxvon jumping all over you for misreading a post?
Hahaha, it's not the first time. I hate when I do that. :o

[tbewick]

'I have this same thread going on Audiogon, where one guy told me I need to get the player isolated (i.e. on a more solid surface) and that should make a difference.'

In one of my more stupid moments, I was duped by this, and bought an unnecessarily expensive hi-fi rack. It doesn't make one bit of a difference. Those 'isolation spikes' are really there to stop you getting marks in the carpet and have nothing to do with sound quality.

[sksfreund]

thank you everyone for your responses. I have a question still for WmAx. I see even some reviews here on audioholics that say the audio quality changes between cd players. They don't come out and say that they are, but they leave the possibility open by saying things like "the audio quality on player x is said to be pretty good". I guess I'm just curious where do you get your information? I am not doubting you, in fact I am pretty sure you are correct seeing as how I can't hear a difference, but I just want some further reading and information on the topic. If you have any that would be great. Also, would you then also disagree with highfihoney about tubes sounding different than solid state players?

[Sleestack]

I'm going offfer slightly different perspective. I have owned and own a variety of high-end sources. I would have to say that most CD players are going to satisfy most consumers but disagree that they all sound the same. Many do sound the same, but there are audible differences between some players. For instance, the analog ouput of a Denon 5910 does sound different than that of a Meridian G08. I'm not sure what causes these differences, nor do I necessarily think they make one better than the other. It is entirely possible that you didn't hear any difference bwetween your 2 players because none exists, but I wouldn't draw conclusions about all players based on your limited experience. I also wouldn't base it on the experiences of most members here, b/c most members here have not spent extended periods of time with a variety of high end sources. That being said, I think many players will sound the same and that most people will do just fine with a solid, dependable source. For me, however, I do not feel all high-end sources are a waste of money.

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

I have a NAD c521i, and a Sony CDP-355 (300 disk changer). Both sound excellant.

If you really want a CD play that sounds different, I suggest an esoteric Tube CD player. (but they're pricey).

[furrycute]

Well, I've heard some high end setups, and they do sound "different" from the kind of everyday setups which I am familiar with.

But redbook CD techonology being what it is, it is by no means a cutting edge technology anymore. Even a $20 portable CD player can respectably play back a redbook CD.

It is true that you can use some really expensive DACs, to get higher fidelity analog sound. But how expensive can those DACs get? I know standalone DACs can cost thousands. But how much better are those standalone DACs compared to a respectable DAC found in a decent high end receiver? Not much I would guess.

As to the CD reading mechanism. That's just pure nonsense. Even the high end CD player manufacturers are switching to using computer grade CD ROM drives. No one makes dedicated audio CD reading mechanisms anymore.


I have always had the suspicion that those high end CD player manufacturers somehow tweak the sound, like using a built in EQ, so they actually do make their CD players sound different. So people who buy these ultra expensive CD players can somehow feel justfied in spending this much on a CD player. Anyway, that's just my suspicion.


As for myself, I'll never spend $1000 on a damned CD player.:D

[mtrycrafts]

thank you everyone for your responses. I have a question still for WmAx. I see even some reviews here on audioholics that say the audio quality changes between cd players. They don't come out and say that they are, but they leave the possibility open by saying things like "the audio quality on player x is said to be pretty good". I guess I'm just curious where do you get your information? I am not doubting you, in fact I am pretty sure you are correct seeing as how I can't hear a difference, but I just want some further reading and information on the topic. If you have any that would be great. Also, would you then also disagree with highfihoney about tubes sounding different than solid state players?

http://www.matrixhifi.com/pruebasciegas.htm

This is in Spanish but if you used the google toolbar translation feature, it works. There are some CD DBTs listed.

Masters, Ian G 'Do All CD Players Sound the Same?' Stereo review, Jan 1986, pg 50-57.

Pholmann, Ken C. '6 Top CD Players: Can You Hear the Difference?' Stereo Review, Dec 1988, pg 76-84.

Phollmann, Ken C. 'The New CD Players: Can You Hear the Difference?' Stereo Review, Oct 1990, pg 60-67.

CD Player Comparison, The Sensible Sound, # 75, Jun/Jul 1999.

CD Player Comparison, The Sensible Sound, # 74, Apr/May 1999.

[mak99]

It is true that you can use some really expensive DACs, to get higher fidelity analog sound. But how expensive can those DACs get? I know standalone DACs can cost thousands. But how much better are those standalone DACs compared to a respectable DAC found in a decent high end receiver? Not much I would guess.
A decent outboard DAC will make a difference. I have a Rega Planet (original) that I have connected via both the analog outputs (Kimber Hero) to the CD input. I also have the Planet's digital out running thru a Rega Io DAC (Kimber D-60). The analog out from the Io (also Kimber Hero) goes into the Aux 1 of my Rega Mira (original) amplifier. A-B'ing the two inputs shows the sound via the outboard DAC has a slight edge to the onboard DAC. The soundstage is slightly wider, with just a bit blacker background. The vocals, guitars, horns, and cymbals take on a "more there" sound, just a bit more natural. Could I tell you which one I was listening to if you turned on my system and just played one source? Probably not. But side-by-side comparison can sure show the slight advantage, so I'm keeping the outboard DAC in my system.


I have always had the suspicion that those high end CD player manufacturers somehow tweak the sound, like using a built in EQ, so they actually do make their CD players sound different. So people who buy these ultra expensive CD players can somehow feel justfied in spending this much on a CD player. Anyway, that's just my suspicion.
The quality of the electronics and onboard DACs will make a difference in sound, no doubt. I primarily chose my Rega Planet as they designed it to sound "as analog as possible". It's definitely more natural sounding than my old Pioneer magazine-type changer, and it works even better with the better DACs found in the Io.

'I have this same thread going on Audiogon, where one guy told me I need to get the player isolated (i.e. on a more solid surface) and that should make a difference.'
Isolation also helps, esp. if your equipment is on wooden floors. Use a wall mount if possible - just compare the performance increase out of a good turntable. I used cone points on said Pioneer changer housed in an old wooden display cabinet, and it definitely helped - not a ton, but enough to notice.

Mass loading also helps and can be done cheap! Try garden pavers which are cheap at hardware stores. If it doesn't convince you, tkae it back for a refund, but at least you'll have tried it for yourself...

[mtrycrafts]

Isolation also helps, esp. if your equipment is on wooden floors. Use a wall mount if possible - just compare the performance increase out of a good turntable. I used cone points on said Pioneer changer housed in an old wooden display cabinet, and it definitely helped - not a ton, but enough to notice.

Mass loading also helps and can be done cheap! Try garden pavers which are cheap at hardware stores. If it doesn't convince you, tkae it back for a refund, but at least you'll have tried it for yourself...


Well, I was going to pass up the post but this I cannot.

Unless your CD player skips, you do not have any issues for isolation, period, end of story. And, that skipping must be from induced physical vibration, not because it cannot read gross errors.

[WmAx]

thank you everyone for your responses. I have a question still for WmAx. I see even some reviews here on audioholics that say the audio quality changes between CD players. They don't come out and say that they are, but they leave the possibility open by saying things like "the audio quality on player x is said to be pretty good". I guess I'm just curious where do you get your information?

I can not point to any single source of information, because this is a complex matter, dependant on being familiar with the associated perceptual research and typical measured behaviour of various products. But to put it bluntly: considerable research has gone into development/research of the critical parameters to audibility. At this time, no credible evidence has been provided that supports the theory of mysterious/unknown parameters affecting actual sound quality. Such evidence would be as simple as proving, in proper controlled blind tests, that two systems that measure similarly(according to known perceptual research) can be readily differentiated between. But remember: sound can be different between units due to defect or purposefully designed modifications of the output signal. For example, a company named Audio Note produced a DAC that lacked an anti-alias filter. This is a critical part of proper function of digital audio reproduction. This system distorts the output signal. This is, of course, measurable.


I am not doubting you, in fact I am pretty sure you are correct seeing as how I can't hear a difference, but I just want some further reading and information on the topic. If you have any that would be great. Also, would you then also disagree with highfihoney about tubes sounding different than solid state players?

Mtrycrafts provided you with some useful links to get you started. No need for me to be redundant.

-Chris

[furrycute]

I primarily chose my Rega Planet as they designed it to sound "as analog as possible". It's definitely more natural sounding than my old Pioneer magazine-type changer, and it works even better with the better DACs found in the Io.



This is exactly my point about high end CD player manufacturers tweaking the sound of their CD players.

Your old Pioneer CD changer is probably giving you a accurate reproduction of the musical signals recorded on your CDs. Your rega is probably cutting off some of the trebble frequencies, giving a slight boost in midrange and midbass frequencies, to make the output sound more "analog."

My opinion is that each high end CD player manufacturer has their own specific "house sound." And that "house sound" is each company's specific freqquency tweaking in sound output.



I have no problems with signal adjustment. I just have problems spending a couple of thousand dollars on a set of fixed parameter signal adjustments built into a CD player, when I can spend a couple hundred dollars on an infinitely more adjustable digital equilizer.

[tbewick]

This is exactly my point about high end CD player manufacturers tweaking the sound of their CD players.

Your old Pioneer CD changer is probably giving you a accurate reproduction of the musical signals recorded on your CDs. Your rega is probably cutting off some of the trebble frequencies, giving a slight boost in midrange and midbass frequencies, to make the output sound more "analog."

My opinion is that each high end CD player manufacturer has their own specific "house sound." And that "house sound" is each company's specific freqquency tweaking in sound output.



I have no problems with signal adjustment. I just have problems spending a couple of thousand dollars on a set of fixed parameter signal adjustments built into a CD player, when I can spend a couple hundred dollars on an infinitely more adjustable digital equilizer.

I think that this is a slightly unfair criticism of more expensive CD players. Do you know for a fact that these more expensive units apply equalisation? If they do, then it would be reflected in the frequency response specifications.

I have recommended high end CD players in the past because they most likely do provide at least technically superior performance and are probably of high build quality. Based though on the DBT references mtrycrafts gave, I doubt whether this technical improvement is very audible in normal listening conditions. I haven't read those DBT references, but the fact that mtrycrafts provided them would suggest that that no difference was recorded.

If I was very bored I might browse around on ebay for a separate CD player. This is because when it comes to usability, my Pioneer DVD player behaves like a complete moron when playing CD's. Compared to the dedicated CD players I've used, I have noticed that my DVD player makes slightly more mechanical noise (like whirring sounds) when playing CD's. This however is a very trivial criticism.

[mtrycrafts]

Based though on the DBT references mtrycrafts gave, I doubt whether this technical improvement is very audible in normal listening conditions. I haven't read those DBT references, but the fact that mtrycrafts provided them would suggest that that no difference was recorded.
.


Some of the older ones may have been different, but they had FR to show this differences.

[tbewick]

Some of the older ones may have been different, but they had FR to show this differences.

I was browsing using Google to find those references you gave (search: Do All CD Players Sound the Same) and came across this wonderful link:

http://www.whathifi.com/newsMainTemplate.asp?storyID=29&newssectionID=3

Titled 'Sound Advice', it is written by those knowledgable people at What Hi-Fi? (from the writers who gave us DAC break-in).

'...what's going on? Digits are either there or not, right? The answer to that is 'kind of...' since all digital systems rely on error correction to get the sound from the disc to the analogue outputs in a recognisable form. The less hard the correction systems are having to work to reconstitute the original sound, the better the reproduction becomes...No, all digital equipment doesn't sound the same, however much logic might suggest otherwise - in fact, it's a miracle most of it is so consistent... '

[furrycute]

Very few manufacturers of high end CD players manufacture their own CD reading mechanisms, DACs, etc. Most of those companies just purchase off the shelf components, assemble them, add some fancy case and displays and sell them for big bucks.

If I recall correctly, in the old days only Philips and one or two other big companies made all the generic audio CD reading mechanisms.

Nowadays, no one makes them anymore. And maker of dedicated CD players are increasingly turning to using CD Rom drives. And we all know computer CD Rom drives have been ripped by the "audiophile" circle for poor music production.



So DACs need breaking in. Ohhmmm, I wonder if it is due to those quackerons in those fancy interconnects that need to reach an equilibrium state once a specified 110v 60Hz highly regulated current is passed through the circuit boards...

[tbewick]

So DACs need breaking in. Ohhmmm, I wonder if it is due to those quackerons in those fancy interconnects that need to reach an equilibrium state once a specified 110v 60Hz highly regulated current is passed through the circuit boards...

Don't forget the gold-plated mains plug. There is a grain of truth in this statement, because I read somewhere that ADC/DAC's are quite temperature dependant. You would hope though that the engineers at Sony, Pioneer etc. are clever enough to account for this. Then again, What Hi-Fi? did give a £6000 Naim CD player five stars - 'worth every penny'.

[furrycute]

Don't forget the gold-plated mains plug. There is a grain of truth in this statement, because I read somewhere that ADC/DAC's are quite temperature dependant. You would hope though that the engineers at Sony, Pioneer etc. are clever enough to account for this. Then again, What Hi-Fi? did give a £6000 Naim CD player five stars - 'worth every penny'.


You can find gold plated terminals on your average $800 mass market receiver, DVD player.

Stereophile routinely give 5 stars to six figure components, ranging from amps to CD players, and for each and everyone of them, they are considered "worth it." Are they really worth it? Or is the advertising dollars those companies are spending at Stereophile making those components considered "worthwhile?" It's an individual judgement call.

[mtrycrafts]

I was browsing using Google to find those references you gave (search: Do All CD Players Sound the Same) and came across this wonderful link:

http://www.whathifi.com/newsMainTemplate.asp?storyID=29&newssectionID=3

Titled 'Sound Advice', it is written by those knowledgable people at What Hi-Fi? (from the writers who gave us DAC break-in).

'...what's going on? Digits are either there or not, right? The answer to that is 'kind of...' since all digital systems rely on error correction to get the sound from the disc to the analogue outputs in a recognisable form. The less hard the correction systems are having to work to reconstitute the original sound, the better the reproduction becomes...No, all digital equipment doesn't sound the same, however much logic might suggest otherwise - in fact, it's a miracle most of it is so consistent... '

Yes, it is a wonderful link and full of silliness, bs, voodoo:D

Easy to speculate and make believe, harder to show reality and evidence:D

[skrivis]

Also if you use cable elevators to lift your cables off the floor and reduce static electricity, it will work wonders:rolleyes:

All kidding aside, save your money and invest in improving your room acoustics. You will go much further with improving your room acoustics than upgrading an already good CD player.

I can make fun of Cable Elevators here? Cool! How about Peter Belt? :)

I often make the same recommendation to spend the lion's share of your time, effort, and money on improving things like your speakers and listening room.

You might also want to get a good pair of headphones (I like Grado). They're very useful for giving a better idea of what your electronics are really capable of. (I also find them enjoyable to use too.)

You can get a pair of SR-80s for $95 shipped in the US.

Another good recommendation would be to take the money you'd spend on a new CD player and spend it on new CDs instead. More music is always a good thing. :)

[mtrycrafts]

I can make fun of Cable Elevators here? Cool! How about Peter Belt? :)
:)


Yes, of course you can. Neither has immunity here:D

Have at it. By the way, I exchanged some posts with Peter at a site some time back. I rather talk to the wall. :D