Mirage S12

seems like good bang for the buck here. i've read that this is compareable to svs and hsu what do you guys think?

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/549499051

Good price, but they have been selling this sub at this price for, like, ever. So for me it's not that special a deal any more. I am waiting for someone to sell for $300.

I wouldn't compare it to anything from SVS, and possibly the STF-2 from HSU. It's basically an upgraded Athena AS-P6000 ($249), or twin to the Energy S12.3 (overpriced). It is a very nice sub for the price, but for a tad more, i think you're better off with an SVS PB10. It's roughly the same size and weight as the Cadence XSUB, except for a less powerful amp. You can get a Candence for $229 shipped.

http://www.energy-speakers.com/v2/products/product-page.php?id=38#
http://www.athenaspeakers.com/as-p6000-specs.htm
http://cgi.ebay.com/CADENCE-XSUB-12-350-WATT-ACTIVE-POWERED-SUBWOOFER_W0QQitemZ5874750340QQcategoryZ3275QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I tried the Mirage S12 and compared it to two Psb models, the 6i I seem to recall was one of them , and the Hsu STF 3 I bought.

The Mirage was BY FAR the worst sub I tried. I could not believe how much they were asking for that POS. Seriously. Get a Hsu and be done with it. I never tried SVS as they are not available in Canada. The psb is excellent as well.

JC

I'm sorry Johnny, but you just lost all credibility with me. The Mirage is an awesome sub. Either you set it up badly or you are just making this stuff up.

I've heard the Mirage in the same room as the PB10 and the Mirage is actually preferable in many ways (cleaner better output above 25Hz, and more musical). Professional reviewers like Tom Nousaine has heaped praised on the Mirage's sibling (the Energy 12.3 ....same sub, same amp, same driver, different cosmetics). Objective measurements of the Energy 12.3 show it to be superior (distortion/linearity) to the LFM-1 which is a STF-3 in drag. So the Mirage can keep up and surpass your STF-3 in output and accuracy (Tom stated that he thought the bass was utterly clean)

If you look around, you'll see that there are dozens of posts about how the Mirage sounds great, with music AND movies.

warpdrive said:

I'm sorry Johnny, but you just lost all credibility with me. The Mirage is an awesome sub. Either you set it up badly or you are just making this stuff up.

I've heard the Mirage in the same room as the PB10 and the Mirage is actually preferable in many ways. Professional reviewers like Tom Nousaine has heaped praised on the Mirage's sibling (the Energy 12.3 ....same sub, same amp, same driver, different cosmetics). Objective measurements of the Energy 12.3 show it to be superior (distortion/linearity) to the LFM-1 which is a STF-3 in drag. So the Mirage can keep up and surpass your STF-3 in output and accuracy (Tom stated that he thought the bass was utterly clean)

If you look around, you'll see that there are dozens of posts about how the Mirage sounds great, with music AND movies.

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Yes, but when the S12 went up against a VTF-3 it was beaten.

SheepStar

Sheep said:

Yes, but when the S12 went up against a VTF-3 it was beaten.

SheepStar

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So? The Mirage costs less than the VTF-3 (comparing the best out the door prices, not MSRP). In the case of US residents, it costs half of the VTF-3.

warpdrive said:

So? The Mirage costs less than the VTF-3 (comparing the best out the door prices, not MSRP). In the case of US residents, it costs half of the VTF-3.

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Stick a port plug in an STF-3, and you have a VTF-3 in extension mode.

Cost of port plug: $5.

Mind you, the sub might loose some cleanliness, but I would give that up for an 18Hz tune for movies.

SheepStar

Sheep said:

Stick a port plug in an STF-3, and you have a VTF-3 in extension mode.

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Not exactly. You lose output AND cleanliness compared to the VTF-3. The VTF-3 has a switch that matches the acoustical impedance for the port plug.

Please don't suggest that you can beat the S12 by plugging the port, you don't get something that easily. In this case, the STF-3 is still $258 USD MORE than the S12 (for Americans)

warpdrive said:

Not exactly. You lose output AND cleanliness compared to the VTF-3. The VTF-3 has a switch that matches the acoustical impedance for the port plug.

Please don't suggest that you can beat the S12 by plugging the port, you don't get something that easily. In this case, the STF-3 is still $258 USD MORE than the S12 (for Americans)

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Up hear, the S12.3 is 1100 dollars.

5 bucks more for a PP that gives me an 18Hz tune is worth it. And I already said you sacrafice performance for extension, but who in there right mind you use the 18Hz tune for anything but movies anyway?

Plus, you can get the amp modded too so it works in the 18hz tune.

SheepStar

Sheep said:

Up hear, the S12.3 is 1100 dollars.

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Our local dealer (I'm in Canada too) had the Mirage 12 for $700 on sale around xmas time. You can get even lower if you look around

Why are you even arguing with me? I never said the STF-3 was a bad sub, the Mirage is comparable in performance and sound quality to the STF-3. I personally would rather have the Mirage because it's a smaller box to hide in my room.

I'm just miffed at JohnnyCanuck's ridiculous assertion

warpdrive said:

Our local dealer (I'm in Canada too) had the Mirage 12 for $700 on sale around xmas time.

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S12.3 = Energy version.

I havent seen the Mirage one yet. But if its cheaper, I would like to.

SheepStar

Buckeyefan 1 said:

I wouldn't compare it to anything from SVS, and possibly the STF-2 from HSU. It's basically an upgraded Athena AS-P6000 ($249), or twin to the Energy S12.3 (overpriced). It is a very nice sub for the price, but for a tad more, i think you're better off with an SVS PB10. It's roughly the same size and weight as the Cadence XSUB, except for a less powerful amp. You can get a Candence for $229 shipped.

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You are doing people an injustice by suggesting the Cadence. The Cadence has nothing on the Mirage. Even the P6000 isn't similar, it's a different box, driver design, amp everything.

And why wouldn't you compare it to the SVS. The Mirage puts out more clean bass above 25Hz than the SVS. And I'd even argue it *sounds* better too.

warpdrive said:

You are doing people an injustice by suggesting the Cadence. The Cadence has nothing on the Mirage. Even the P6000 isn't similar, it's a different box, driver design, amp everything.

And why wouldn't you compare it to the SVS. The Mirage puts out more clean bass above 25Hz than the SVS. And I'd even argue it *sounds* better too.

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The Cadence is $229. The Mirage is $400. Where is the injustice? Since neither of us had both the Cadence and Mirage in the same room, can we honestly debate the issue? IYHO, is the Cadence really that bad of a unit - especially after demoing it?

XSUB:
16.5" (w) X 15.5" (d) x 17.5" (h)
Class AB, 350 Watt RMS Power Amplifier
25Hz - 250Hz
Unit Weight: 49 pounds
12" Heavy-duty, Kevlar-reinforced pulp cone with Poly coating
70 oz. magnet
Dual Thermal Protection Ciruits
High Temperature/High Voltage Capacitors (they are large)
Adjustable Phase Control 0-180 Degrees
Fully Adjustable Low Pass Subwoofer Frequency Control
Fully Adjustable Bass Equalizer Gain Control
Independent Sub Bass Volume Control

S12:
19.29 x 15.67 x 19.41
300 watt amp - class ??
19Hz-120Hz +/- 3dB (19Hz at what, 75dB?)
weight - not mentioned at website/manual, it is 51lbs shipped ??
12" Titanium Deposit-Polypropylene Hybrid Woofer
-whats the magnet weight, I guess it doesn't matter
-nice manual, can they leave more info out?

For HT, I would much rather have available bass below 25Hz than more clean bass (your claim, not mine) above 25Hz. True music lovers don't use subwoofers with two channel music. I don't find the comparison.

$399 is a fair price for a well made 12" sub. It is not in the same category as far as subs go with the PB10. Opinions will differ, just try not to speak for everyone at once.

Buckeyefan 1 said:

The Cadence is $229. The Mirage is $400. Where is the injustice? Since neither of us had both the Cadence and Mirage in the same room, can we honestly debate the issue? IYHO, is the Cadence really that bad of a unit - especially after demoing it?

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Well, since you haven't heard it, I don't see why you should recommend it. Most people don't find the Cadence to sound that great. If the person is looking at $400 subs, why bring it up?

For HT, I would much rather have available bass below 25Hz than more clean bass (your claim, not mine) above 25Hz. True music lovers don't use subwoofers with two channel music. I don't find the comparison.

$399 is a fair price for a well made 12" sub. It is not in the same category as far as subs go with the PB10. Opinions will differ, just try not to speak for everyone at once.

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A wee bit hypocritical? True music lovers? Since when did music lovers elect you to speak for them? There are LOTs of serious music system based around subs, true, not the crap around here that most people seem to recommend, as it does seem like most people want a boom box.

FYI: the Mirage is capable of 20Hz at 87 dB and max output of 110 dB distortion limited using Tom Nousaine measurements. Those are amazingly good figures for that testing method.

The Mirage does plenty well for movies. It's in the same league as the PB10. Period. Look at the Tom Nousaine measurements, look at the user reviews at avsforum, look at the published reviews. Anybody who doesn't think this sub is capable and comparable to the PB10 has been sniffing SVS pamphlets too long. I don't have to claim anything, the data on the S12 is out there, and yes, it is a clean sub that puts out a LOT of clean bass.

I encourage everybody to do their own research and not take the advice of the SVS and Hsu purveyors blindly. yes, there is life beyond SVS and Hsu

And by all means, god forbid, actually *listen* to these subs. This is a better use of time than comparing magnet sizes, and shipping weights.

Here we go...

warpdrive: Most people don't find the Cadence to sound that great.

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Post links to these people, please. Obviously you missed craigsubs review of the XSUB. Have you actually demo'd an XSUB? Can you provide some history to links where you've commented on your findings, or are you simply going on word of mouth?

If the person is looking at $400 subs, why bring it up?

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Where on post 1 does it say $400 subs?

A wee bit hypocritical? True music lovers? Since when did music lovers elect you to speak for them? There are LOTs of serious music system based around subs, true, not the crap around here that most people seem to recommend, as it does seem like most people want a boom box.

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Actually, I'll take headphones.

FYI: the Mirage is capable of 20Hz at 87 dB and max output of 108 dB distortion limited using the Tom Nousaine measurements.

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87dB at 1w/1m? What does that equate to at the seated position?

The Mirage does plenty well for movies. It's in the same league as the PB10. Period. Look at the Tom Nousaine measurements, look at the user reviews at avsforum, look at the published reviews. Anybody who doesn't think this sub is capable and comparable to the PB10 has been sniffing SVS pamphlets too long. I don't have to claim anything, the data on the S12 is out there, and yes, it is a clean sub that puts out a LOT of clean bass.

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Mirage is not paying you enough to push their sub.

Buckeyefan 1 said:

Mirage is not paying you enough to push their sub.

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Obviously not as much as SVS is paying you to push theirs

Warp - all kidding aside, is this an a/b or d amp, and are you familiar with the magnet size on the driver?

I do agree the sub appears to be a great value, but the manual leaves a bit to the imagination (SVS is at fault as well, but they do show a pic of the driver outside the cabinet).

If you own one, have you taken it apart? Also, what's the warranty. All I found was "please see the warranty document on the back cover."

A lot of guys are placing orders for this sub, and I'm sure they'd be interested in some more info on it.

Also, what would this deal cost in Canada?

Can you post TN's review?

Unfortunately TN's review is no longer on the S&V site. The sub is $1000 MSRP in Canada, but it's typically discounted generously (30% is not uncommon) which does't compare to the Vanns deal at all because Vanns buys huge quantities of them. Have no idea as to the magnet size. It's got a BASH amp FYI
The warranty is 5 years speaker, 1 year amp.

Here are Tom's Numbers ranked by maximum output.
http://members.cox.net/fabulousfrankie/Nousaine.htm Since the Energy is the same sub, the numbers come from the listing for the 12.3

I have no qualms over people preferring the PB10....it's an impressive sub which I continue to recommend, but one should not overlook the Mirage. The acoustic anamolies in the typical room make arguing over the small differences a moot point. I can't imagine either choice would be obviously wrong, music or HT.

One of the guys from TC Sounds just posted at AVS about the S12, saying he owns two of them! LOL, they designed and produce the TV12 driver in the SVS Ultra.