What do you think of current taxes? [Archive] - Audioholics Home Theater Forums

BMXTRIX

03-01-2006, 12:39 PM

ironlung

03-01-2006, 01:20 PM

As far as public school, if I had children, I would like a little more choice in where they go than have the decision made by the street I live on.

When I was in high school (1990-94) I started at a school that had won academic acheivment awards in years past. In my third year my father and I had to move to a different town. The high school I was required to transfer to was (self admitted) little better than babysitters. The school was so broke they changed their schedule to 5 am to 1 pm to get affordable bus service. Gang violence also made it into the paper on a near weekly basis.

I was lucky enough to transfer to the school that my grandmother was in district for. The school was much safer but not much of an academic challenge compared to the first school. Three years at the first school was enough to meet the grad requirements by 95% of the last school.

Any of you out there have your mortgage paid in full? Skip your property tax and see how much property you own. 85-90% of my property tax bill gets sent to the local public grade and high school. I have zero children using said schools. Could someone explain how its my financial responsibility to pay for other peoples children?

ironlung

03-01-2006, 01:31 PM

This one is worse than the schools. There was a time before FDR when we did not have the "dole". When some one was down on their luck their family helped them. If their family could not help them many other PRIVATE charities helped them (free masons and many others). If the person down on their luck could not help themselves, and their family could not help them, and the private charities could not help them they perished.

This was supposed to be a free country. That means you are free to work and succeded or free to crash and burn. There is no guarantee you will survive.

ironlung

03-01-2006, 01:48 PM

Correct me if I am wrong. I'm no math major. Isn't 10% of a million more than 10% of a thousand?

Shadow_Ferret

03-01-2006, 02:39 PM

All taxes are evil. Nothing more than extortion.

jawilljr

03-01-2006, 03:16 PM

All taxes are evil. Nothing more than extortion.

"The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville

Mort Corey

03-01-2006, 04:57 PM

Just curious BMXTRIX, what do you consider "fair share"? An estimated percentage taken from gross imcome. Those crazy Yankees in the late 1700's thought 3% was extortion.....boy would they be surprised now :)

Mort

Rock&Roll Ninja

03-01-2006, 05:55 PM

If public school tax keeps 90% of those under 18 from becoming professional thugs & burglars, I'm all for paying it (and you know most of the country wouldn't pay a penny to teach thier "chilluns" basic literacy if they weren't forced to by the current system). I'd glady pay even more in taxes to get universal healthcare. But maybe thats because my insurance company denied my MRI's two months ago and I had to pay $2000 out of pocket.... on top of the thousands I pay a year for insurance!!! Asshats!

I think a flat tax would be better in the long run, no deductions. You want 6 kids? get a better job or learn to love Wal*Mart clothes. (I already own them, they aren't bad).

Leprkon

03-01-2006, 06:59 PM

I personally resent the hell out of not having kids but having to pay for their school and have the parents go all whiney about the quality of the service.

I also resent the hell out of same parents who send their kids to private school and think THEY shouldn't have to pay for public schools.

That being said, I firmly believe that parents and students should be able to write 100 % off their taxes for all legitimate post-high school education costs, be it college or vocational school. These people are working to get better and will also be paying more taxes.

Keep in mind that sorority T-shirts and keg parties at the local DeltaDeltaDelta house do not qualify as "legitimate expenses".

highfihoney

03-01-2006, 08:28 PM

All taxes are evil. Nothing more than extortion.
i agree 1,000 %,our government takes our cash & wastes so g*# damn much of it that its outright theft not to mention that the government use's our cash to pay their employee's better wages than 50% of the amercian people get,oh & we cant forget about the extremely generous number of paid sick, holiday, personal & vacation days that they get,all free.

welfare:mad:

food stamps:mad:

social security for drug addicts:mad:

social security for ignoramus's:mad:

the guys who patch pot holes in the rain:mad:

10 men to sit in a water dept truck & read magazine's:mad:

free cell phones for employee's:mad:

city vehicle's for any nit wit that can drive them:mad:

free mansion's for mayor's & govenor's:mad:

Rock&Roll Ninja

03-01-2006, 08:44 PM

I will say this: America treats its non-wooorking poor better than most countries treat their middle class. Medicare/Medicaid, foodstamps, HUD, Social Security, rent control, volunteer drivers, etc etc etc. And all this is on-top of the public roads, free school, police, paid fire departments, non-corrupt military, clean water.

And how exactly did we go from "Poor people starve to death" to "poor people = fat people" in 50 years?!?! Unbelievable!

As "working poor" (according to some people) I actual live worse then the poor: I pay for food, my rent isn't subsidised, I make too much money (!?!?) for college grants, my private healtchcare insurance has less coverage than Medicare/medicaid (I pay a deductible if its even covered!). Sure I get to pick my own dentist, but I can't afford braces (not covered, $4000 out of pocket).

About my only real benefit to working is that I get to have a car/motorcycle. my love of transportation is the only thing from turning me into a bum :rolleyes: (poor people get to have TVs, surround sound, & music collections).

So basically if the government gave me free housing, free healthcare, free college, free insurance, and free food I'd gladly pay 75-80% flat tax. because I would still be ahead at the end of the year.

MBauer

03-02-2006, 05:30 AM

In my life I have had two kinds of financial problems. I have had income problems and tax problems. Tax problems are much better.

No one likes to pay taxes, but if my taxes allow me to live here, enjoy my family and life I am not too upset.

Would I like to see changes? Yes, I for one believe in a flat tax with no deductions.

sts9fan

03-02-2006, 08:21 AM

social security for ignoramus's

What would a Ignoramus do if they got no money from the government?? Oh kill people for food. Sounds great to me. I think it is really sad that a person you can afford 50k in audio gear is compaining they need more money.

jawilljr

03-02-2006, 08:40 AM

Clint DeBoer

03-02-2006, 08:58 AM

They would have to go to work.STOP IT. That's crazy talk! ;)

shokhead

03-02-2006, 09:17 AM

3 out of the past 5 years we have owed within $100 of what we had saved through the year, $5200 in 02, $4700 in 03 and $7800 this year. Each year our savings account was wiped clean. Odd isnt it. Being taxed at almost 50% sucks.

I'm abit overdone with programs that want our money going to another Country to help there people that there Gov are not helping. We have our own to help and if we kept all the money in the USA,we could put a hell of a dent in all money problems. BTW other Country's, stop calling the USA ********** because either we dont or you dont think its enough.

sts9fan

03-02-2006, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by jawilljr
They would have to go to work.

STOP IT. That's crazy talk!

What if they are mentally incapable of a job better then minimum wage? Do you think you could live on minimum wage?

This a good nonpartisan book about people I dare you to call lazy. If you won't spend the 10 bucks I will lend you my copy.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0805063897/sr=8-1/qid=1141314480/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-1132297-8536647?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Clint DeBoer

03-02-2006, 09:48 AM

What if they are mentally incapable of a job better then minimum wage?What if they are a single parent raising 4 kids? These are valid issues and there are certainly people we need to help. The trouble is that the money and programs are already there. Our government mismanages the funds - but for some reason there are people who want to give these same people MORE money to mismanage.

If you want a real good cause to fight for - find out where the already-allocated money goes and why we still have any (real) poverty in America at all?

I care - I just don't trust the people who garnish my wages to do the right thing. That's why I give so much money locally and to charities that I trust (and hold accountable for how they spend the money I give).

ironlung

03-02-2006, 09:54 AM

Hey sts9fan or should I say comrade?

What happens in nature when a critter can't take care of itself or young? They perish! That's what happens to the weak and unfit. Do you think your doing the human race a favor keeping the unfit afloat?

Why am I respnsible for your food,health,shelter, survival in general. I take care of myself first, family second, freinds third, public charity last(witch is hard because the gov claims this part first!)

sts9fan

03-02-2006, 09:55 AM

Fair enough but taking money away will not solve these mismanagement issues. Restructuring is needed. This not the goal of many conservitives. Just like the SS reform was not ment to help people. Its sole porpose was to shrink the government(which I am for in some regards). That is why it only got 30% approval with evangelical christians who are one of the GOPs base demographics.

sts9fan

03-02-2006, 09:59 AM

Hey sts9fan or should I say comrade?

That does not offend me and is quite outdated.

What happens in nature when a critter can't take care of itself or young? They perish! That's what happens to the weak and unfit. Do you think your doing the human race a favor keeping the unfit afloat?

We are better then critters

Why am I respnsible for your food,health,shelter, survival in general. I take care of myself first, family second, freinds third, public charity last(witch is hard because the gov claims this part first!)

Because you have a underlying will for the good of all mankind! I also think its sad you put yourself before you family. I would starve to death before my family goes without.

Resident Loser

03-02-2006, 10:26 AM

What would a Ignoramus do if they got no money from the government?? Oh kill people for food. Sounds great to me. I think it is really sad that a person you can afford 50k in audio gear is compaining they need more money.

...amusing, that the most ardent defenders of "social justice" come from areas like Newton that are 88% white with a median family income of over $125K and have 2% of families below the poverty line...

Reminds me of the Kennedy's pontificating from their compound in Hyannis...

jimHJJ(...or wherever...)

sts9fan

03-02-2006, 10:35 AM

...amusing, that the most ardent defenders of "social justice" come from areas like Newton that are 88% white with a median family income of over $125K and have 2% of families below the poverty line...

Reminds me of the Kennedy's pontificating from their compound in Hyannis...

jimHJJ(...or wherever...)

Why? If people who are well off(not talking about me) do not help then who will?

df4801

03-02-2006, 10:43 AM

I just purchased multiple item in the past month - total over $15K.
All 3 sellers gave me significant discounts for paying with cash.

Why would they do that? Uhmmm.

Frankly, none of my business why. I saved thousands.

Does anybody else now realize why a sales tax system would be better?

Resident Loser

03-02-2006, 11:14 AM

Why? If people who are well off(not talking about me) do not help then who will?

...to talk the talk (not you) at others expense and yet still have a NIMBY attitude...some affordable public housing on the Cape, perhaps? If people who are well-off wish to contribute more than their share, by all means, go for it...it just seems they have so many loopholes when it comes to the bottom line come April 15th...

Disproportionate is a word that comes to mind...three levels of income tax, FICA/Medicare/Medicaid, two of sales tax (three for certain items), property taxes plus water/sewer bills(including taxes), auto registration fees with mass-transit surcharges, utility fees with govt. mandated taxes and surcharges...Taxes on the interest for the money I choose to save for retirement (Lord knows about the viability of soc. sec.), tolls with taxes and surcharges, summonses with additional surcharges...and while that last item is a result of one's own stupidity, those extra charges are supposed to be used for repair/maint of the road infrastructure, yet always seem to end up in the municipalities general funds, as do most of the other previously mentioned, agenda-specific surcharges...

I'm not saying there aren't legitimate exceptions, but it is my belief far fewer than most would have us believe. There is a segment of the population who seem to think that something is owed to them simply by virtue of their existence and others who play the system to their own advantage...we really need to clean house, so those who are in true need can easily get what they deserve and those who don't get a good swift kick in the @$$.

jimHJJ(...Give a man a fish and he'll have dinner...teach a man to fish and he'll have food for a lifetime...)

highfihoney

03-02-2006, 11:53 AM

What would a Ignoramus do if they got no money from the government?? Oh kill people for food. Sounds great to me. I think it is really sad that a person you can afford 50k in audio gear is compaining they need more money.

what would an ignoramus do if they got money from the government"

example #1

my stupid fat lazy greasy brother in law is one of THEM that gets FREE government cash for being a lazy pig,to people like you who dont know him he would look like somebody who deserves social security because he is so stupid but to people who know him (me) all he looks like is a bag of skin who survive's by finding loopholes in the system then exploiting them to the max, i have offered him a good paying job atleast 100 times, his response is always the same, if i go to work i'll loose my $500 a month social security for being A.D.D :mad: he also sells his food stamp credit card most of the time to buy stupid s#!t like cigarettes & he is not alone either, there are millions of leeches just like him.

example #2

around xmas time a few years back i offered all my guys the chance to work saturday & sunday for double time cash with no taxes taken so they could have a great xmas,the one person who did not want to work told me he could not work because he had to go to TOYS FOR TOTS to get xmas presents for his kids, when i asked him how come he prefered to go mooch for gifts for his children instead of walking into a store like a man & buying them his response was, if i dont go this year i wont be eligible next year:mad: a looser pre planning next years mooch.

whats sad is people just like you who look at people like me & think they have it all figured out, i can afford $50k in audio gear because ive worked my balls off my whole life, its nice to sit on a throne of self rightousness like you do but you are out of touch with reality.

i AM a person who GIVES good paying jobs with excellent insurance to (less fortunate) & young people & i also give from myself to people deserving of my help like the senior citizens who i help by repairing their homes for free at my own expense or the donations i give to help the families of murdered police men but i refuse to feel sorry for able bodied men & women who are capable of working but choose instead to suck thier existence from the nipples of taxpayers all the while blaming society for not giving them a chance.

you dont have a clue as to how lazy most people really are who suck the system dry.

sts9fan

03-02-2006, 12:07 PM

Resident Loser I agree with what you say.

HiFiHoney:

The big difference is I feel the lazy are the exception and you feel they are the rule. Unfortuately nither of us can prove we are right.

shokhead

03-02-2006, 12:14 PM

Lady walks into a school cafe with her app for the free breakfast and lunch program. She hands it to the cafe Supervisor. She checks it over and tells the parent,i'm sorry you make to much, you wont qualify. Oh give it back to me. She does and changes the amounts and hands it back,now do i?

ironlung

03-02-2006, 01:06 PM

We are better then critters

This is your first step in the wrong direction.

We are the smartest, most powerful and only critters that are self aware. We are critters non the less.

Because you have a underlying will for the good of all mankind.

If I have the will and the means to help mankind I might. IT'S OPTIONAL. Do you get a warm fuzzy when someone has a gun to your head helping themselves to a little "charity" out of your pocket.

Your survival is no ones responsibility but yours.

When I say help myself that would include wife and children. Family would be siblings/parents.

BMXTRIX

03-02-2006, 11:25 PM

There are a lot of moral questions that come up when talking about taxes...

People are acting like 80% of the tax money we are paying is going towards education and welfare.

Come on! Our budget goes one and only one direction from almost top to bottom with the teenie bit left over for everything else.

Our almighty military.

I do NOT have a problem with taxes, I do have a problem with forced social security savings as I do far better with my investment accounts - which I actually have. But, I find that our government is a total joke when it comes to managing its own money. The military is most definitely one of the worst offenders of funds that exists and it is within every single department, branch, and division of the military that money is poorly spent, over spent, or horrendously misguided.

Trust me - as an A/V contractor for the government, you better believe how wasteful the military is as it pays my expense reports and paychecks.

Now, if we cut military spending in half, tripled the budget for other programs, still reduced taxes all around, properly managed existing funds... It would all be great.

Managing funds? Yeah, that means that Joe Mooch who is scamming the system for welfare is kicked to the curb where he belongs. Miss Thang with her 8 kids and pregnant again might be due for a little reality check about personal responsibility. I have an issue when women forget that they aren't married and don't have a job when they invite their boyfriends over. No common sense.

How about kicking half of those on welfare to the curb to go find jobs like they should be?

No question in my mind - of those able bodied people out there that are poor, a great majority have earned every bit of it. But, I still feel that those who want better should be given the hand to achieve better. But, they have to show results, not just ask for hand outs.

Really though - someone complaining about someone filling potholes? Or is it the 'in the rain' part? I'm not a road technician so I don't know how bad that is. If that guy will earn a paycheck whether he is filling potholes or not, I would rather have him out doing it in the rain and the fill only lasting half as long then pay him to sit at the office reading old Playboys.

There are simply to many lazy and dumb people. Not sure which there is more of really. But the worst is the combination of the two. I have to question at some level the lack of responsiblity of others. The lack of accountability of our government, and the increasing failures of the system which we should be screaming at.

Not all kids SHOULD be in school.
Not all poor people want to make something of their lives.
No person should feel entitled to hold a job.
No salaray should be expected by someone.
No tax money should be wasted on frivilous purchases.

Yet, it all continues... and things are NOT getting better. So, I do have a problem with my taxes the way they are right now.

highfihoney

03-03-2006, 04:16 AM

Really though - someone complaining about someone filling potholes? Or is it the 'in the rain' part? I'm not a road technician so I don't know how bad that is. If that guy will earn a paycheck whether he is filling potholes or not, I would rather have him out doing it in the rain and the fill only lasting half as long then pay him to sit at the office reading old Playboys.

you cant patch potholes in the rain because the asphalt wont stick,the binding agent used to hold asphalt together is a tar made from petroleum ,if the surface is wet the asphalt wont stick,they might as well throw dirt in the potholes as to patch a pothole in the rain.

poor quality s#!t work like that is the reason we all see so many d.o.t. trucks along side the road durring new road cunstruction,they inspect & keep quality control on the new roads so as not to duplicate the s#!t work that was done on most road construction over many years,if its raining paving stops,this type of quality control only applies to outsourced contractors,too bad the government dont use these types of quality control on their own employee's.

instead of dreaming up stuff for city/state employee's to do like the potholes in the rain they should either have them do something constructive or send them home without pay but they dont,all of this points to the lazieness & incompetence of city/state managers who instead of finding something constructive for their employees to do they just say f-it & let them keep patching because they are to lazy to reorginize their manpower for the day.

total up the entire cost of a 5 man patching crew for 1 day including benifits at state pay scale & the costs are over $3,000 for doing something that wont last a month.

brian32672

03-03-2006, 06:14 AM

I started reading this thread when BMX started it. And I knew it would go off slightly into tangents and clearly start pointing fingers at the people on food stamps and the like.
We had another thread that started going into the same tangent, please read this thread HERE (http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11518).

I just get a tad angry, when I feel that I am one of the people being talked about.
Anyhow, you (you=not pointing any direct finger at anyone) try living on 700.00 a month (which is what I get, = less than minimal wage).

I know that even a couple that is starting out and makes minimal wage, each person takes home 200.00 a week x 4 weeks = 800.00 a month x 2 people = $1600.00 a month. And it is said these people can barely afford a 1 bedroom apartment, food, electricity, gas, normal amenities, cable, phone, possibly a cell phone, internet that nowadays is a must, etc....................

shokhead

03-03-2006, 08:08 AM

Scratch the internet and cell.

brian32672

03-03-2006, 09:07 AM

Scratch the internet and cell.
You said the same thing in the other thread, and I guess you just don't get it.
Please read some of these articles.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2295447.stm
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/31809_inernetop.shtml (granted this one is based on poor countries, but the need for in-home internet can be seen as a plus for the instant information on a medical need, whether researching a medical condition, or purchasing equipment, etc. Also as a learning tool for the young - which take my example of that a couple starting out and makes 1600.00 and actually has 1 child, clearly any and all children that have internet access at home will have an advantage to the child that does not)
http://www.samuelbrittan.co.uk/text41_p.html (good article, but not meant for the showing of internet and or cell need)
http://www.childrenspartnership.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&CONTENTID=7142 (this shows exaclty what I am talking about)

ironlung

03-03-2006, 09:20 AM

.....food, electricity, gas, normal amenities, cable, phone, possibly a cell phone, internet that nowadays is a must, etc....................

Cable, cell, internet are a must? Do "normal amenities" include AV and computer equiptment? Let me guess. Your entitled to such things and it's my responsibility to pay if you can't.

Resident Loser

03-03-2006, 09:25 AM

I know that even a couple that is starting out and makes minimal wage, each person takes home 200.00 a week x 4 weeks = 800.00 a month x 2 people = $1600.00 a month. And it is said these people can barely afford a 1 bedroom apartment, food, electricity, gas, normal amenities, cable, phone, possibly a cell phone, internet that nowadays is a must, etc....................

...food, clothing and shelter are what is required; your "amenities" like CATV, cellphone and internet access are not...

Food? Most likely the overpriced, non-nutritious, supermarket, fast-food? Or is it Col. Macwendybelle's?...For the price of one of those heavily advertised, mass-market, salt and fat laden, brand name packages, a healthful meal for a family of four can be prepared...unfortunately it requires work...but we're too busy surfing the net and talking on our cell, right.

Clothing? Wal-mart provides good values...but no, even without a pot to p!$$ in, we gotsta' have the name brands...

Shelter can problematic but not impossible...everyone I know started out small, but worked (with OT or even two-jobs)...did without the "amenities", scrimped and saved...that's how it works...

There is no free-lunch...you get nothing for nothing...

jimHJJ(...why do you get $700 a month anyway...can't you work?...I'd suggest Hi-Fi and/or HT wouldn't be my concern were I in that position...)

brian32672

03-03-2006, 09:56 AM

Cable, cell, internet are a must?
Well, I'll let you know. I live in a retirement condo and it is the cheapest place I can live at the moment.
Cable by chance is included in the required monthly maintenance fee (which is astronomical)

jimHJJ(...why do you get $700 a month anyway...can't you work?...I'd suggest Hi-Fi and/or HT wouldn't be my concern were I in that position...)
I guess you did not read that other thread I had said please read.:confused:
You will see I am disabled, if you feel not reading that post I will say it here as well.
I fell from a 5 story building and broke every bone in my face (total facial reconstructive surgery)
tracheometry because I had a shattered jaw.
Broke both arms in multiple places.
Shattered both wrists (this is one of my main disabilities)
Many more injuries but that is the gist of it.

EDIT::: Added these quotes:
...food, clothing and shelter are what is required; your "amenities" like CATV, cellphone and internet access are not...
I guess you must just want to pass over what I typed. This time not even in a different thread.
Please read post #34

Let me guess. Your entitled to such things and it's my responsibility to pay if you can't.
As well here. Please read post #32 and click the HERE link. Then read that entire thread (it's actually a short thread)

shokhead

03-03-2006, 10:09 AM

You said the same thing in the other thread, and I guess you just don't get it.
Please read some of these articles.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2295447.stm
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/31809_inernetop.shtml (granted this one is based on poor countries, but the need for in-home internet can be seen as a plus for the instant information on a medical need, whether researching a medical condition, or purchasing equipment, etc. Also as a learning tool for the young - which take my example of that a couple starting out and makes 1600.00 and actually has 1 child, clearly any and all children that have internet access at home will have an advantage to the child that does not)
http://www.samuelbrittan.co.uk/text41_p.html (good article, but not meant for the showing of internet and or cell need)
http://www.childrenspartnership.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&CONTENTID=7142 (this shows exaclty what I am talking about)

Sorry if i did but i dont remember so show me. Cell phone and internet bill or food on the table? Let me think about it.

philh

03-03-2006, 11:24 AM

Interesting discussion. Through some forced and voluntary lifestyle changes, we are dealing with considerably less income then two years ago. It forced me to take a hard look at every single expense and do a bottom up budget. It was amazing when I finished how much difference there was in our monthly budget, while not impacting a single thing, except for how often we ate out and how quick we just bought something because we could.

Still running very very tight, but we have the cell phones, internet, satellite, etc. Don't need to eliminate those "optional" things. Also have managed to keep my lake front house. The irony though, I would have nearly an equivalent mortgage payment in same size house off the lake. Got very lucky with my purchase.

Local schools had a school bond millage proposal on the ballot Tuesday. On the way to go vote, the oldest (9th grader) encouraged us to vote yes. So, I asked her if she knew how much the bond would cost us. She didn't, so we told her exactly how much it would impact the household. I then asked a really important question, are you willing to give up either the phone or the internet to get a new high school built? She was not, but the youngest (7th grader) said she would give up the internet :)

I would argue with anybody that thinks that any child suffers without internet access. Public Libraries have free high speed internet, but even more importantly, there is very little "educational" learning on the internet, by children. I watch our two, who are very adept at playing games, attempting to bypass my rules on no chat room, or sending useless and senseless emails to everybody who was ever stupid enough to provide an email address to them. We have a strict and enforced computer time limits, and we've seen their friends up all night playing on computers, sending emails, etc. We just gave the oldest back her access to MySpace, while we closely monitor it. I had her account on my computer really late one night, logged into her account and a boy from school sent her a note. What was he doing up that late? OK, I know I drifted way off topic, but high speed computer availability is NOT required.

majorloser

03-03-2006, 11:37 AM

As usual, I see there is quite a difference in opinions on welfare. I don't believe that was the real issue at hand when the thread was started.

I might be in position to know a few things about some of the areas others have commented on here:

I personally know Brian. I know what he owns, where he lives and his financial situation. I probably shouldn't even comment on his situation but you guys are WAY out of line. Let's just say he makes it through life with help from family and friends. Also, he has made smart choices in his past to help pay his way for now. The future is another story. SO BACK OFF!

There was other comments about city/state employees and their managers. Something I have a little bit of knowledge. I'll just say that what little money is available will be spent as wisely as possible. If you think it is easy, budget your spending for next FY now. Oh, and by the way, after the end of this month (March) no changes to the budget (which doesn't start till Oct '06 and ends on Sept '07). One small little detail, your income is fixed and can not be increased and you can't borrow money. Let's see if you have any money left by Sept '07.

I too have a beef with the children issue. My wife (loserwife) and I have chosen to not have children. It has allowed us to make choices and have freedoms that would not have been possible if supporting children was an issue. I was able to put my wife through college and we have been able to buy things that I know would not have been possible. This was our choice and we don't regret it. I consider it the responsible choice. Granted, now I get the crap taxed out of me but it's cheaper than kids (BTW, it's a four letter word to me)

My beef has been all the times in our lives when "the family man or women" get special treatment. I used to hate being told, "He needs the money/overtime more than you because he has a family." or "Let them ahead of you in line because they have kids" or "They need something more than you because they have kids"

If I have to pay for those kids, at least I should get a little p#$$y!

brian32672

03-03-2006, 11:44 AM

I would argue with anybody that thinks that any child suffers without internet access. Public Libraries have free high speed internet, but even more importantly, there is very little "educational" learning on the internet, by children. I watch our two, who are very adept at playing games, attempting to bypass my rules on no chat room, or sending useless and senseless emails to everybody who was ever stupid enough to provide an email address to them. We have a strict and enforced computer time limits, and we've seen their friends up all night playing on computers, sending emails, etc. We just gave the oldest back her access to MySpace, while we closely monitor it. I had her account on my computer really late one night, logged into her account and a boy from school sent her a note. What was he doing up that late? OK, I know I drifted way off topic, but high speed computer availability is NOT required.
Good points, but I did not say suffer.;)
And I did bring up the point of public library in the thread I had quoted (see post #32 and click HERE)

I did say, that other children would have an advantage (if the internet is used correclty, and with obvious parental supervision - of course;) )
However not totally necessary for a child today, but technology at home in the current state of the world IMO is really needed. That is unless, you or most people feel that why even bother letting them learn about computers. The sad thing, is that even today to apply at my local Publix or McDonalds, you will need computer assistance and or knowledge. Yes, that means to apply for a job, you do not need to know how to write, you just need to know how to use a computer (at McDonalds:confused: ) Also almost all will ask for a email address. For others, the easiest and fastest way to find a job or public housing is the internet, specially if you are researching on what states/cities to move to - to figure out if your income level can even be supported there. Thats like me saying, I am going to California to find a cheaper place to live.:confused:

Shokhead, did see where he posted what I was saying (or rather quoted, that he has already stated this)

Anyhow, I am just rambling. Sorry:o

brian32672

03-03-2006, 12:01 PM

I too have a beef with the children issue. My wife (loserwife) and I have chosen to not have children. It has allowed us to make choices and have freedoms that would not have been possible if supporting children was an issue. I was able to put my wife through college and we have been able to buy things that I know would not have been possible. This was our choice and we don't regret it. I consider it the responsible choice. Granted, now I get the crap taxed out of me but it's cheaper than kids (BTW, it's a four letter word to me)

My beef has been all the times in our lives when "the family man or women" get special treatment. I used to hate being told, "He needs the money/overtime more than you because he has a family." or "Let them ahead of you in line because they have kids" or "They need something more than you because they have kids"

If I have to pay for those kids, at least I should get a little p#$$y!
This I agree with.
My points were more for the single family just trying to start out (and with 1 child)

I most certainly am not talking about those people on welfare that continually pop out children so they can get a a FATTER welfare check, and more foodstamps. They also claim disabled and do not want to work when they are very capable.
I think those people should be sh@t. Or at least castrated.
They clearly are not making sound financial judgements, and are simply living off the government.
I mean, heck they were on welfare with the first child, but now have four, and allow the children to run the streets.
That is a joke, but then again, where do you draw the line.
(or rather, figure out a plan on where to draw the line, because those people that are legitimate, they will suffer as well)

EDIT:::::
As usual, I see there is quite a difference in opinions on welfare. I don't believe that was the real issue at hand when the thread was started.
Yeah, that is why I had said this below. And did not want to mess up BMX's thread more than it should be.
I started reading this thread when BMX started it. And I knew it would go off slightly into tangents and clearly start pointing fingers at the people on food stamps and the like.
BTW, thanks for jumping in Dave.;)

shokhead

03-03-2006, 12:04 PM

Some people cant manage money. My 62 year old sister still gets money from my mom to this day. A few K here,a few K there and my mon feels so sorry for her she had her will redone so she gets everything. I remember my sister crying about eating cereal 3 times aday because her,her husband and kids had nothing else to eat. BTW,they had just rented 5 movies to watch over the weekend.

Rock&Roll Ninja

03-03-2006, 12:17 PM

Resident Loser

03-03-2006, 12:22 PM

...I guess you didn't read my post (#25) in this thread and I am sorry for your misfortune...I will reproduce the salient point here:

I'm not saying there aren't legitimate exceptions, but it is my belief far fewer than most would have us believe. There is a segment of the population who seem to think that something is owed to them simply by virtue of their existence and others who play the system to their own advantage...we really need to clean house, so those who are in true need can easily get what they deserve and those who don't get a good swift kick in the @$$.

However, the bulk of my post (#36) referred to the couple you spoke of...my questions for you were separate from those comments, so please don't commingle them.

jimHJJ(...and I believe the observations contained in the body of post #36 are still quite valid...)

Resident Loser

03-03-2006, 12:31 PM

My points were more for the single family just trying to start out (and with 1 child)

...a pointed question...whose responsibility is that?

If you can't afford to do something, whether it's buy a car or start a family, save until you can...until then, act responsibly, don't depend on the dole and keep it in your pants!

jimHJJ(...it's called personal responsibility...a little-used commodity nowadays...)

brian32672

03-03-2006, 12:38 PM

However, the bulk of my post (#36) referred to the couple you spoke of...my questions for you were separate from those comments, so please don't commingle them.
I am not trying to mix-up what you said. I don't even see how you took it that way.:confused:
No big deal, I just felt as though I am being attacked because I make 700.00 a month (disability check, not welfare) and am on foodstamps (which was just lowered again).:mad:

I am done in this thread, and have posted very little here at AH as of recently. One reason, is I guess that I do not see eye to eye with all the fellows that have 50,000 in equipment. And are so much better than so many others. I always try to find great bargains for people on a budget, and I get ridiculed for it quite often. So I keep my posting down, and really should not have even bothered with making any points in this thread. My bad.:cool:

EDIT:::
...a pointed question...whose responsibility is that?

If you can't afford to do something, whether it's buy a car or start a family, save until you can...until then, act responsibly, don't depend on the dole and keep it in your pants!

jimHJJ(...it's called personal responsibility...a little-used commodity nowadays...)
Clearly you are a Resident Loser.;)

Gee Wally, I did get a 16yr old pregnant (my mistake), but I must take responsibility for that child and in good graces it would be best to marry and support the old lady as well.
Man, that must never happen. Hmm, I think it happens quite often. Do you actually think a 17yr old boy and 16yr old girl have their mind set on financial future?
I think, they are just trying to get by, until he and she has 5 years of experience in their minimal pay jobs, to finally get a better job. And it's not like this is a new thing, heck I think my mother got pregnant at 17 (may of been 18) with my older brother.

Rock&Roll Ninja

03-03-2006, 01:01 PM

This I agree with.
My points were more for the single family just trying to start out (and with 1 child)

I most certainly am not talking about those people on welfare that continually pop out children so they can get a a FATTER welfare check, and more foodstamps. They also claim disabled and do not want to work when they are very capable.
I think those people should be sh@t.

Unemployed Military spouses also get additional funds for the more children they prodouce and get the same WIC (foodstamps). They get the same government paid healthcare too (only its not called Medicaid).

Why should they(the spouses and children) get anything for nothing? Doesn't the country pay their military-employed spouses money every other week? I think we should castrate all enlisted soldiers (and hysterectomise the females of course) to put a stopper on these wasted government dollars for dependants who arent working:rolleyes:

Resident Loser

03-03-2006, 01:15 PM

Gee Wally, I did get a 16yr old pregnant (my mistake), but I must take responsibility for that child and in good graces it would be best to marry and support the old lady as well.
Man, that must never happen. Hmm, I think it happens quite often. Do you actually think a 17yr old boy and 16yr old girl have their mind set on financial future?
I think, they are just trying to get by, until he and she has 5 years of experience in their minimal pay jobs, to finally get a better job. And it's not like this is a new thing, heck I think my mother got pregnant at 17 (may of been 18) with my older brother.

...who's fault/responsibility is any of that? There was a time pre-marital sexual relations were considered taboo...not a rite-of-passage...Perhaps their situation will be a lesson to them and their offspring...

jimHJJ(...my response: you made your bed, now lie in it...)

majorloser

03-03-2006, 01:44 PM

...who's fault/responsibility is any of that? There was a time pre-marital sexual relations were considered taboo...not a rite-of-passage...Perhaps their situation will be a lesson to them and their offspring...

jimHJJ(...my response: you made your bed, now lie in it...)

Yeah, and as I recall that was also the time in our country when back room abortions were also common. Do we want that again? Pre-marital sex is nothing new. Having children out of wedlock is also not new. The difference is now women aren't treated as second class citizens for it. Let's not forget that it takes two. Pre-marital sex for a man was never a big deal in America.

You asked, "Who's fault or responsibility is that?" As usual it falls on the parents to teach children responsibility and self worth. The value of a dollar and what it take to EARN it must be taught by example.

shokhead

03-03-2006, 02:55 PM

majorloser

03-03-2006, 03:03 PM

To many children are raised in a home where all they see is what is given to there parents and there parents complaining out loud that they dont get enough. If i've talked to one,i've talked to 1000 over 22 years at a school where the kids say,i'll never do what you do. I'm glad i'll tell them. What are you going to do. Nothing,i dont need to work. We get everything free. I get that same answer over and over and over.

EXACTLY!

Like I stated above, the value of hard work and self pride has to be taught at home. It's not the government's job to teach children, even though most think so since there's public education. There are those whom honestly need and DESERVE public assistance. Then there are those whom feel they are automatically entitled to public assistance.

highfihoney

03-03-2006, 03:46 PM

jaxvon

03-03-2006, 03:54 PM

the people pointing their fingers at our military are forgetting one very important detail,the men & women in the military ARE providing us with a service & the welfare collecting suction devices are not.

And while the equipment they use costs a bundle, the individual people don't get paid crap. Although, I've heard that our soldiers in Iraq are eating very well, so I'm happy for that.

majorloser

03-03-2006, 04:01 PM

Why should they(the spouses and children) get anything for nothing? [/sarcasm]:rolleyes:

Because they are making a sacrifice everytime their loved one goes into harms way for you. You go tell the wife of a soldier who is over in Iraq she doesn't deserve anything.

BMXTRIX

03-03-2006, 04:26 PM

Hey, I've got an idea...

Why not cut military spending by 50%, give everyone a 20% tax break, and then double the amount of spending for all social services and schooling, etc.

Then STILL come out ahead?

In the world of hundred dollar bills it seems people are pretty darn hung up on the nickles and dimes.

A person who falls into bad luck through NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN - In my opinion, deserves a helping hand. Unemployment taxes and other taxes help to pay for that. I don't disagree with them as long as the government tries to actually hold someone accountable for the money they receive.

Picking on any individual, or using any single individual as a standard by which to judge all others is simply a lousy and short-sighted way of doing things. There will always be people at both ends of the spectrum, and a whole lot of people right in between the two. Some who want a job, are willing to work, but aren't looking as hard as they should. Those who find a job, but realize they will earn LESS by taking that job then by staying on welfare, etc.

That last group is one that drives me nuts... Actually the policy drives me nuts. A person who is willing to work, so they pay taxes, should definitely be getting more for their efforts instead of less. Those who either put forth no effort, or very little, and are capable, deserve the least... or actually NOTHING. Those who want to contribute but can't... through no fault of their own need, and I believe deserve, a bit to get by on. But, this should fall a bit on family members as well.

I imagine some day my father may be old and sick and may need to live with me. He's family, and my door is open to him if, or when, he needs it.

Brian is a tough example simply because I don't know him. There are people who know him who will defend him because he is a good guy, and all indications are that he IS a good guy. But, his brain seems to work, he seems to be able to type alright... not sure of his age, but it does seem that if the government wanted his burden on them to be less, then they could help him find a job that is suited for him. Brian choosing not to take that job may well be his own decision and at that point it all comes into question. Not necessarily Brian though - anyone. Anyone given the chance to do more who refuses... what do they really deserve?

Sometimes you don't get the job you love, you take the job that is available.

Or perish? I've gotta wonder why they should be allowed to continue when there is no justification for it?

As for the guys working in the rain - I've gotta say that a person making a living doing hard work deserves a paycheck. They should be salaried folk who earn their money. Never - EVER - sent home without pay. You can't make the bills if you live on a erradic income. An employer also can't maintain good employees when they can't guarantee them a regular paycheck. No, I don't want them in the rain if it doesn't fix the problem. But, I don't think they shouldn't be paid either. Find something else worthwhile to do with them and their time. Train, learn, educate, clean, etc. Just so much to do, why not do it?

BMXTRIX

03-03-2006, 04:30 PM

Because they are making a sacrifice everytime their loved one goes into harms way for you. You go tell the wife of a soldier who is over in Iraq she doesn't deserve anything.
She deserves exactly what her husband earns. Why does she deserve MORE because she has extra kids and her neighbor with only one kid and a husband off fighting side-by-side deserve one cent less?

Miltary families have a lot of very ethically questionable things going on with them as it relates to real world living. I don't know enough details and would probably irk to many people to make many comments on it though.

Rock&Roll Ninja

03-03-2006, 05:02 PM

And while the equipment they use costs a bundle, the individual people don't get paid crap. Although, I've heard that our soldiers in Iraq are eating very well, so I'm happy for that.

Free college, free health insurance, free dental insurance, free vision-care plans, free food, reduced price consumer goods on post, sign-on and re-enlistment bonuses (an extra $10,000-$40,000 for ARMY light infantry, $100,000+ for re-enlisting NAVY S.E.A.L. w/combat experience, God only knows what for re-enlisting doctors), reduced car insurance, Free apartment (or house for families), if your married you get even more money for doing no extra work, more kids = more extra money for no extra work, free life insurance, and a guaranteed pension.

Sure a takehome paycheck of X-dollars for a new recruit may sound like chump change, but when you add in the benefits you're effectively giving 17 year old kids a $100,000/year job with no college education. Some of them didn't even graduate highschool.

If they have 3 kids when they enlist you get a 4 bedroom house... In some posts (say California), thats a free $750,000 piece of property. No rent or property taxes due, thank you very much sign on the dotted line.

Sure they have a very real risk of getting shot overseas, but you also get to pick you MOS (your "job") when you enlist: Wanna be in the infantry? thats fine, but don't look suprised when the diesel mechanic or the radiologist get the same benefits package and don't get shot at.

majorloser

03-03-2006, 05:12 PM

sjdgpt

03-03-2006, 05:32 PM

I don't mind taxes, what I dislike are people who avoid paying taxes, thus increasing the impact of taxes on my meager wages.

Oh, and why should my tax dollars be spent on projects that I don't support?
Damn Congressman never listens to my pleads to stop funding his own pet projects.

Rock&Roll Ninja

03-03-2006, 08:14 PM

BRING THE TROOPS HOME (so they can wage war on welfare moochers):D

BMXTRIX

03-03-2006, 10:55 PM

You don't know Brian's situation. A good reason not to comment on it. It would also seem you are blind to the situations of the world we live in if you believe your statements. You are also correct that you don't know enough details and will probably irk too MANY people when you comment about our military and their families.

Please don't make comments that are inflammatory just to see if you can get a rise. There are a lot of hard working people that have given for the sake of others. This country was founded on the principle that the less fortunate can have another chance and will not be persecuted. Our military was founded to protect our rights and help defend the less fortunate.
Actually I wasn't aware that I did... and you didn't actually quote or specify who you were speaking to. Some people will make comments to get a rise, others will make comments because they have a problem with the facts.

What I have seen for a lot of military recruiting is that if you are a young kid with no direction or aim or goals in life... then that is exactly what they are looking for. That's a lot of bottom feeder scraping to put together the military. It doesn't reflect on the actual people, but once again points towards the lousy management and the way things are done quite often in this country.

Brian specifically I did not comment on in any way that I think HE would call negative. He did come here to make some comments himself, about himself, which, if someone doesn't want to hear comments back, then perhaps they shouldn't put themselves out there for that in the first place. Yet, he has been good to others on these forums and I think he tries to help others well, and I am unaware of the truth of his situation. Simple as that. No comments were made as to whether he truly is mooching or just in a bad situation. No comment from me either way - so who were you directing your comments to?

Yet, anyone in a government job, especially military, should be questioned and commented upon anytime they may be taking part in something unethical or unfair to others. Our military was not founded to "help defend the less fortunate" it was founded to protect our borders from foreign invaders. Heck, by your reasoning you are against Iraq because it neither protects our rights nor helps the less fortunate of our country. In fact, it could very well do just the opposite with how poor war actually is on a national economy like ours. ;) Now, THAT was inflamatory. ;)

I actually support the war, I'm not happy about it, but think it will be beneficial for the USA in the (very) long run if we stay the course. I have no clue or comment at all about Brian other than his positive actions on these boards. I definitely have comments about a great deal of the members of the military as I don't feel that pulling from the bottom of the pool, then paying exorbinant amounts of money to them is the best way to do things. Not against the people going out in harms way, but to the morons running the show. Continued poor work by the powers that be.

shokhead

03-04-2006, 07:39 AM

I knew nothing about Brain untill i read it on this thread. Not sure where the be attacked about only making 700 bucks came from and being ridiculed for finding bargains as most of us shop that way.

majorloser

03-04-2006, 08:13 AM

Actually I wasn't aware that I did... and you didn't actually quote or specify who you were speaking to. Some people will make comments to get a rise, others will make comments because they have a problem with the facts.

But luckily you live in the United States where our government allows us both to have those rights and our military defends those rights. Please re-read your past posts. Edit as needed.

What I have seen for a lot of military recruiting is that if you are a young kid with no direction or aim or goals in life... then that is exactly what they are looking for. That's a lot of bottom feeder scraping to put together the military. It doesn't reflect on the actual people, but once again points towards the lousy management and the way things are done quite often in this country.

Please feel free the next time you see a member of our armed forces to tell him or her that they are bottom feeders! I hope you pick a nice military bar to make those kinds of comments.

I take it you have no idea what it takes to become an officer or be accepted to one of the military academies.

Brian specifically I did not comment on in any way that I think HE would call negative. He did come here to make some comments himself, about himself, which, if someone doesn't want to hear comments back, then perhaps they shouldn't put themselves out there for that in the first place. Yet, he has been good to others on these forums and I think he tries to help others well, and I am unaware of the truth of his situation. Simple as that. No comments were made as to whether he truly is mooching or just in a bad situation. No comment from me either way - so who were you directing your comments to?

I think that speaks for itself.........you should read your previous quotes than maybe edit.

Yet, anyone in a government job, especially military, should be questioned and commented upon anytime they may be taking part in something unethical or unfair to others. Our military was not founded to "help defend the less fortunate" it was founded to protect our borders from foreign invaders. Heck, by your reasoning you are against Iraq because it neither protects our rights nor helps the less fortunate of our country. In fact, it could very well do just the opposite with how poor war actually is on a national economy like ours. ;) Now, THAT was inflamatory. ;)

Actually I stated, "This country was founded on the principle that the less fortunate can have another chance and will not be persecuted. Our military was founded to protect our rights and help defend the less fortunate."

Here is only but a few items that state what our military is for and what our founding fathers wanted:

The Constitution-
The Preamble “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

“To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union”

“To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;”

Provides for a military that defends the Constitution.

The Articles of the Confederation –

Article III. The said States hereby severally enter into a firm league of friendship with each other, for their common defense, the security of their liberties, and their mutual and general welfare, binding themselves to assist each other, against all force offered to, or attacks made upon them, or any of them, on account of religion, sovereignty, trade, or any other pretense whatever.

Article IV. The better to secure and perpetuate mutual friendship and intercourse among the people of the different States in this Union, the free inhabitants of each of these States shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of free citizens in the several States

Binds the States (US government) to defend liberties that includes religion and “any other pretense whatever”.

Oath of Enlisted Military –

"I, _____, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

They swear they will obey orders. Not question them.

All of that and more boils down to the US military will provide security and defense of this country and it's laws. Which is specifically spelled out that it defends liberties of religion and any other pretense (falsehood) from foreign and domestic threats. Would that not be defending the "less fortunate"? There are many instances in national and state law that specifically states what the military was founded for and how it will be used.

We could go on further with our agreements with the United Nations, NATO and other foreign policies to further state how the defense of others is spelled out.

We could also look at how our military was deployed in the past that set the presedence for todays use of the military.

You should be glad our country does not demand mandatory military service like many other countries.

ironlung

03-04-2006, 09:25 AM

...a pointed question...whose responsibility is that?

If you can't afford to do something, whether it's buy a car or start a family, save until you can...until then, act responsibly, don't depend on the dole and keep it in your pants!

jimHJJ(...it's called personal responsibility...a little-used commodity nowadays...)

But its fun to do-it. Condoms are expensive!

Matt34

03-04-2006, 09:45 AM

Matt34

03-04-2006, 10:08 AM

Free college, free health insurance, free dental insurance, free vision-care plans, free food, reduced price consumer goods on post, sign-on and re-enlistment bonuses (an extra $10,000-$40,000 for ARMY light infantry, $100,000+ for re-enlisting NAVY S.E.A.L. w/combat experience, God only knows what for re-enlisting doctors), reduced car insurance, Free apartment (or house for families), if your married you get even more money for doing no extra work, more kids = more extra money for no extra work, free life insurance, and a guaranteed pension.

Sure a takehome paycheck of X-dollars for a new recruit may sound like chump change, but when you add in the benefits you're effectively giving 17 year old kids a $100,000/year job with no college education. Some of them didn't even graduate highschool.

If they have 3 kids when they enlist you get a 4 bedroom house... In some posts (say California), thats a free $750,000 piece of property. No rent or property taxes due, thank you very much sign on the dotted line.

Sure they have a very real risk of getting shot overseas, but you also get to pick you MOS (your "job") when you enlist: Wanna be in the infantry? thats fine, but don't look suprised when the diesel mechanic or the radiologist get the same benefits package and don't get shot at.

Why aren't you at the recuriters office if we have it so good?

....I don't know where you guys are getting this, "if they have kids they get more money" thing?

The housing issuse isn't the same throughout, when I got to my latest assignment I was 135th on the waiting list for on-post housing.(which btw is mostly 60 years old.) I lived in a motel with 2 german shepards for 3 months before I could fine a house that I could afford.

When I first came in a few years ago a a newlywed(1996) and working 60hr weeks(funny how that didn't go away) I was bringing home $750 a month which quailified me for foodstamps, did I take them, hell no, my wife got a job at Wal-mart selling shoes and we did this with one vehicle(which took a quarter of my paycheck every month) $750 a month to defend this country, not a bad deal I thought......

We've come a long way since then..

BMXTRIX,

I don't know exactly what your taking about "ethiclly questionable things" but I'll make sure my wife knows you don't think she is worthy of recieving family seperation pay while I'm away for a year (again) in Iraq. Cause her life is so easy......:rolleyes: BTW- we don't have childern and this lifestyle is reason for it.

She is part of the military as much as I am and it wasn't her choice like it was mine.

highfihoney

03-04-2006, 10:12 AM

You should be glad our country does not demand mandatory military service like many other countries.

i think alot of people take for granted what serving in the military really means to a man & the personal losses they endure while serving , i am extremely glad service is not mandated.

i very narrowly missed the draft for vietnam (thank god) & from that experience i gained the knowledge that it takes people with HUGE BALLS to serve & their motives for joining/serving should not be questioned by those of us who dont or never have served.

to begrudge brave people like this things like housing or extra cash/resources for their wives & children is insane.

Matt34

03-04-2006, 10:14 AM

One more thing, the topic of taxes come up and all you can say is how much is spent on the people that actually have a job(no less defending your country)?

Like I said before, if we have it so good how come there are only 500,000+/- active duty defending a country of 295,734,134 give or take a few thousand illegals.

highfihoney

03-04-2006, 10:45 AM

As for the guys working in the rain - I've gotta say that a person making a living doing hard work deserves a paycheck. They should be salaried folk who earn their money. Never - EVER - sent home without pay. You can't make the bills if you live on a erradic income. An employer also can't maintain good employees when they can't guarantee them a regular paycheck. No, I don't want them in the rain if it doesn't fix the problem. But, I don't think they shouldn't be paid either. Find something else worthwhile to do with them and their time. Train, learn, educate, clean, etc. Just so much to do, why not do it?

my example was to show how lazy & unqualified management personal in our government operate on a daily basis but its not their fault alone,50% of the blame for wasteful spending can be laid at the feet of the hourly employee's too, if a supervisior was to ask these road workers to go do something else that was constructive they would surely be confronted with the old (thats not my job) speech & thats where sitting around reading playboy magazines comes into action,thats not my job & you cant make me!

this is how local & state employee's operate weather they be salary or hourly,once a person signs on as a government employee they are set for life & they know it too,unqualified & lazy personel cant be fired,at best they just get transfered to some other department.

this type of behavior is extremely previlant in our government & has caused alot of cities/states to outsource such things as garbage disposal & maintance of city buildings, this type of poor work ethics & poor quality workmanship has also caused most states & cities to outsource all of their road work (except patching) to outside contractors who can & will be held accountable for costs & quality,things that government employee's cannot be held accountable for.

just because a guy reports for work does not mean he is deserving a paycheck.

Rock&Roll Ninja

03-04-2006, 11:19 AM

Why aren't you at the recuriters office if we have it so good?

I was a few years ago. Failed the physical (heart murmur). They'd probably take me now no questions asked they're so laid-up for troops but my wife said she'd leave me, she's already done the whole 'Marine Wife' thing, which lead to her last divorce. And I'd take my wife over camel-spiders anyday.

The housing issuse isn't the same throughout, when I got to my latest assignment I was 135th on the waiting list for on-post housing.(which btw is mostly 60 years old.) I lived in a motel with 2 german shepards for 3 months before I could fine a house that I could afford.

If I stayed at a motel (lets use Super 8's $75/night payment plan) it'd cost me $2250/month. And you got to keep your dogs. No its not a perfect situation, what with a lack of base housing caused by base-consolidation(which is causing the local housing market to skyrocket), but you weren't living in a tent either.

Rock&Roll Ninja

03-04-2006, 11:22 AM

In case anyones curious, the great middle-eastern camel spider!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/Dwaleberry/camel_spider_web.jpg

BMXTRIX

03-04-2006, 12:59 PM

BMXTRIX

03-04-2006, 01:05 PM

just because a guy reports for work does not mean he is deserving a paycheck.
Absolutely! More accurately they deserve responsibility and accountability and the state MUST have the right to enforce this.

Don't focus on the individual, but the system that allows this to happen or encourages wastefullness. There are always tasks to be done and if you can't repair a pothole, then it is a good day to pick up some litter... Which should be spelled out in the employee's responsibilities. That it IS part of their job. That when the rain comes, you will continue to get a paycheck as long as you work hard and are responsible.

The system can be improved if someone with any power wanted it to be and it would reduce costs while improving overall quality.

Teachers and the school system is an excellent example of not enough responsibility being placed on the system. Some children need to be left behind, so the rest can flourish.

Matt34

03-04-2006, 01:17 PM

If I stayed at a motel (lets use Super 8's $75/night payment plan) it'd cost me $2250/month. And you got to keep your dogs. No its not a perfect situation, what with a lack of base housing caused by base-consolidation(which is causing the local housing market to skyrocket), but you weren't living in a tent either.

The place I stayed at was $65/night and my housing allowance was only $865 a month at the time. I guess I could have made some money off the dime bags I found inside the cold water knob.

I've stayed in tents that were nicer.:p

Matt34

03-04-2006, 01:19 PM

In case anyones curious, the great middle-eastern camel spider!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/Dwaleberry/camel_spider_web.jpg

We killed 10 of those things in one morning while on a checkpoint. They will literally charge you, aggressive little buggers. One on one, they will kill a scorpion any day.

majorloser

03-04-2006, 02:44 PM

majorloser - You are way to defensive of the individuals that serve. I am NOT talking about individuals, I am talking about the forced management structure by which the military is being forced to operate and recruit forces.

They are forced into a situation where the majority of their recruiting comes from those individuals with no direction or other alternatives in their life. There are those that rise to the top and there are those who are excellent. There are individuals who perform great things and there are those who will try to stay with it forever because it is a job.

I have no problem with any individual and your responses are misdirected... defending individuals instead of looking at the management structure that is in place which is so inept. Pointedly, military and government management is INCREDIBLY inept. They do exactly what you are doing now. Micromanaging instead of focussing on what the actual problems are. I'm not for the draft, but I think it may be a much better way to ensure a better overall military. Less of a draft and more of a 'required' tour of duty. Those who just want in and out can do so, but everyone gets the chance to experience it and nobody is surprised by it. Families don't feel a child ripped away for service like the draft... and while the kids with no direction will be a part of it as they always have been, those who have always excelled will be able to have their brilliance added to the strength of our military.

One of the biggest issues really is that people simply can't handle any sort of criticism at all. I see it at my job daily, I see it in our government daily... People don't want to hear "Well, have you thought about changing this because it doesn't seem to be working." As soon as they hear one bit of criticism they feel attacked - they take it personally. This is a sure way to guarantee the continued failures within a system.

The system isn't broken, but it has failures that need to be addressed and not shied away from. Not ingored. The policy in place to have open enrollment with financial incentives that favor those who have less money and less direction in life is NOT a bottom feeder approach to recruitment? I don't see how it can be looked at any other way.

Of course... what will I find in a military bar or from individual enlistees will be individuals. Some will be excellent others will be lousy. I am not judging the individuals - I am commenting on the system. If you don't like the comments and think everything is perfect... Then that is your choice.

I would rather work for improvement though, thanks.

Your damn right I'm defensive of our military.

No, my comments are not misdirected. I direct my comments at a person that has obviously never served their country nor has ever spent a day in government employment. The same person who is first to complain that something is wrong or unfair but not do anything about it. Run for office, enter the military or get a government job if you think you can do better.

And please, tell us why giving those "on the bottom" an opportunity to better themselves through military service is so wrong. Any soldier or officer is a better person for the service they have given. There is nothing wrong with learning respect.

And for those who thing that their local city government is so poorly run, their streets are in such bad shape or the employees aren't doing a good job, I challenge you to attend one council meeting, one board meeting or any government meeting and speak up.

Everybody wants more from there government but doesn't feel that taxes should go up. Like I said before, try to run your personal budget based on a plan from last year with no increase in income.

Guess what, when you don't have the money to do those projects you're left with a choice: Fire employees or take on less work. Oh but you can't do either of those things. Unions say the people stay and the taxpayers say they must have those projects. But don't you dare raise the taxes or fees.

Let's see: Oil prices went up, Darn asphalt is made of oil; steel prices went up, there goes the guardrails; cement went up 50% last year, there goes the sidewalks; landscape plant prices double, damn we had 4 hurricanes that wipe out the biggest nurseries in the US; alluminum prices skyrocketted, there goes those new streetlights...........

highfihoney

03-05-2006, 11:44 AM

[

And for those who thing that their local city government is so poorly run, their streets are in such bad shape or the employees aren't doing a good job, I challenge you to attend one council meeting, one board meeting or any government meeting and speak up.

hi major,im not singeling you out with my post but being that you mentioned people going to city council meetings i copied that sentance as a preface to the things i have found out in council meetings.

the reason im so down on my local/state government is that i see the intense mismanagement from the top down on a daily basis,my wife is a school teacher & i have a brother who is a trash collector (garbage man) & my wife attends alot of council meetings so i join her sometimes.

i live in a city where for decades we have paid our garbage men 8 hours a day to do their work no matter how long it takes,if they finish their route in 2 hours then they can go home with 8 hours pay & the routes are so small that my brother needs to go as slow as possible to even make his job last 4 hours.

in the event that not enough hourly employes show up to man all the routes then another 2 man team is allowed to pick up the garbage from the unmanned route after they finish their job & recieve 8 more hours pay at 1 1/2 pay,i have seen times where my brother & his partner have recieved 24 hours pay for working an 8 hour shift with 16 of the hours being overtime pay.

citizens have complained for years about garbage trucks being parked outside employees homes for the entire day & public outcry over these common pratices was massive at council meetings to the point that the public wanted the trash collection put out for bids to cut costs,the response to all of this from my city was to tell all employees to make their job last 8 hours at all costs.

these same pratices apply to our road patching crews,their job title/description is to patch roads,nothing else,in the event of rain or snow they cant be asked to perform another duty that is not outlined in their job description,the union will not allow this pratice & the membership backs this policy 100%,if this issue is pressed by city management it will end up in court & there will be a massive legal battle.

i sat down with my brother & we totaled up all of his sick occasions(2 days equals 1 occasion),personal days,earned days(for showing up every day on time) paid holidays & paid vacation days he only has to work 9 months out of the year & gets paid for 12 months,i would say that this type of spending is mismanagement at all levels including the hourly employes who graciously take every last sick,holiday,personal,vacation,earned day they can or they will loose them,they also have their union fight tooth & nail against increasing route sizes.

the taxpayers of my city supply all the city workers with all of their work boots(2 pair a year of $99 redwing boots)all of their work clothing & all clothing to work outside( $200 carhart bibs & jackets) plus we pay for all of their work gloves.

our government in my state has a proven track record of paying the hourly employes better than 70% of the rest of the tax paying population,sad but true.

shokhead

03-05-2006, 05:05 PM

And i work 8.5 hours aday. Get paid for 8 and the .5 is for lunch. They dont let me take lunch. Been like that for 22 years.

Sheep

03-05-2006, 05:24 PM

We killed 10 of those things in one morning while on a checkpoint. They will literally charge you, aggressive little buggers. One on one, they will kill a scorpion any day.

How exactly did you kill them? Bullets, foot, hummvee? :)

SheepStar

Matt34

03-05-2006, 06:41 PM

How exactly did you kill them? Bullets, foot, hummvee? :)

SheepStar

Stomped on them a few times, the ground gave to much to get a one-hit kill on em.:p

jaxvon

03-05-2006, 07:16 PM

Stomped on them a few times, the ground gave to much to get a one-hit kill on em.:p

It's a good thing Uncle Sam issues you hearty combat boots.

Sheep

03-05-2006, 07:23 PM

It's a good thing Uncle Sam issues you hearty combat boots.
Those spiders are not a threat to humans.

They have no venom, the can only run 10MPH (top speed), they can't jump, they don't scream (I think). All they do is bite you. Which is really a kiss of death as the superior human will just stomp the truck out of it afterwards.

SheepStar

jaxvon

03-05-2006, 08:09 PM

Those spiders are not a threat to humans.

They have no venom, the can only run 10MPH (top speed), they can't jump, they don't scream (I think). All they do is bite you. Which is really a kiss of death as the superior human will just stomp the truck out of it afterwards.

SheepStar

That would be Jackson.

Matt34

03-05-2006, 08:25 PM

Those spiders are not a threat to humans.
Which is really a kiss of death as the superior human will just stomp the truck out of it afterwards.

SheepStar

.............or scream like a little girl.:p

Sheep

03-05-2006, 09:13 PM

That would be Jackson.

Ok Nancy. :p

.............or scream like a little girl.

You can also be Nancy. :rolleyes:

SheepStar

Matt34

03-05-2006, 09:33 PM

Where is a flip-off smiley when you need one?

Ah, here it is....http://members.cox.net/nissan4wheelers/smiley6.gif

BMXTRIX

03-05-2006, 11:54 PM

And for those who thing that their local city government is so poorly run, their streets are in such bad shape or the employees aren't doing a good job, I challenge you to attend one council meeting, one board meeting or any government meeting and speak up.

Everybody wants more from there government but doesn't feel that taxes should go up. Like I said before, try to run your personal budget based on a plan from last year with no increase in income.

Guess what, when you don't have the money to do those projects you're left with a choice: Fire employees or take on less work. Oh but you can't do either of those things. Unions say the people stay and the taxpayers say they must have those projects. But don't you dare raise the taxes or fees.

Let's see: Oil prices went up, Darn asphalt is made of oil; steel prices went up, there goes the guardrails; cement went up 50% last year, there goes the sidewalks; landscape plant prices double, damn we had 4 hurricanes that wipe out the biggest nurseries in the US; alluminum prices skyrocketted, there goes those new streetlights...........
Ah - So we are in agreement... It's a lousy situation that departments are put in. It is a silly and unrealistic way to do things. Yet, why aren't you making the connection that it could and should be changed? This is the entire crux of everything that I have said.

It is not the military giving those at the bottom a chance... it is them TARGETING those at the bottom instead of having a program that goes after all, equally, in a way that targets the best to get the best and have the best - equally. I believe that it can't happen, but would like to see it happen... somehow.

As well, I would like to see much more accountability at EVERY level of the system. Employers who can't fire employees is silly. Unions that have jobs that protect those who are incompetent or lazy... pure insanity. Teachers not expected... or allowed - to teach and fail students who don't measure up... total lunacy!!!

Everything is clearly not perfect and I'm not trying to complain, I'm trying to find out what is wrong, explain what I think is wrong, and learn - so I can have a better understanding of what the issues are. :D

Rock&Roll Ninja

03-06-2006, 06:21 AM

It is not the military giving those at the bottom a chance... it is them TARGETING those at the bottom instead of having a program that goes after all, equally, in a way that targets the best to get the best and have the best - equally.

This has been done discussed to death since Korea. recruiters go where recruits will find the most likely recruits. And historically the poor neighborhoods have the highest concentration of people "looking for a way out" (the A#1 reason given for "why join the military?"). Wealthy white neighborhoods (and yes, they are mostly white in this country) = more kids going to college, less kids to enlist.

The one big exception is a NAVY recruiter, which I have never seen. maybe they target coastal towns (where people are more likely to like boats).

Resident Loser

03-06-2006, 08:56 AM

...why not invest in a pair...It's the Steam Vent remember...nearly anything goes...why PM me?...let everyone see that you have nothing.

In answer to your asinine question re: my mistakes...For any I may or may not have committed, I never went crying to anyone for help...and no, spit-for-brains, I'm not the fool in any of this...I'm responsible for all my actions and I pay the consequences...

Perhaps instead of patting them on the head, try telling Mr. Stiffie, the tramp and their little b@stard that everything isn't okee-dokee and there is a price for every action...maybe if someone had done just that prior to the event, they wouldn't now have to suffer the repercussions.

jimHJJ(...TFB...)

BMXTRIX

03-06-2006, 01:34 PM

This has been done discussed to death...
That is business as usual - I am simply tired of discussions by those in charge. When those doing the work are paying every day and all are forced to suffer in some way - from the government employees to their managers to the average taxpayer who is asked to give more, yet given no decision making ability at all.

Pyrrho

03-06-2006, 03:35 PM

Since it was brought up in the wrong thread and is a good discussion topic...

:)

I've gotta say that I don't mind paying taxes at all. I drive roads, I go (went) to schools, my kid(s) will be, etc. I use public resources and I want them to be good. I want my country to be defended, I want a lot of things and I have no problem paying my fair share.

I agree, and I do not have children. But I do want your children well educated, as one of them might be my doctor one day, and then it will matter very much for my quality of life.

As for paying for defense, I have no problem with that, but I do have a problem with paying for offence, which is what we are doing at the moment. I resent paying for a war that is the result of figments of Bush's imagination. But I will say no more about that as I do not wish to divert the topic too much.

What I do have problems with:
1. Our area of the country has a poverty level for a family of 4 that approaches $48,000 or more. Some people just do NOT get the disparity of cost of living across this country. The going rate for new single family homes... call it 4 bedroom 2.5 bath is over three quarters of a million dollars! We all need more in this area just to pay for our 'normal' homes. Not mansions, but normal! This is not figured at all into the national tax structure. Where our $75K a year equals someone elses $35K a year.

I think it would be difficult to calculate that into the national tax structure, and any attempt would most likely end up with abuse and with severe errors, making the whole thing more unfair than it is now.

2. Social Services are a good thing, but they do not have enough policies in place to protect from abuse. There are those who are misfortunate and I am happy to help those out. But, someone who is not trying - who is LAZY deserves the karma they have earned. Not a handout.

Frankly, it would probably be cheaper to simply give everyone a "handout", whether they needed it or not, just not enough of one to live luxuriously. That way, the administrative costs could be kept to a minimum (you would only need to determine that the person is real and alive). The fact that your taxes would be higher to pay for it would be offset by the fact that you would be getting the "handout".

Additionally, right now, the system will cut off people who want to work and can only get a crappy job. Now, if your choice is to work and get less than not working, what would you do? Especially if you have children to feed? If everyone got enough to avoid starvation no matter what, but not enough for luxuries, then people would be motivated to work if they can, because they want more than they have. Even a crappy job would be an addition to one's income.

When I went to college, I remember the financial aid system was set up such that working all summer and saving money meant that one would be given less aid. So working was a stupid thing to do, unless one spent every penny and would then qualify for the same aid as someone who didn't work! (What I decided to do was simply to go to school during the summer months, too, so that I would be able to take more classes.)

3. The top income level paying more doesn't bug me, as long as they are all paying it and that it applies to their area. A flat tax somehow sclaed for cost of living across the country seems like a good way to do this. Adjustments can be made for the lower level incomes as necessary - but they should be forced to ask for it so they can be held accountable as well. Less deducations, more accountability.

Other people's opinions?

I think the top level income people should be paying the most, and they should not have deductions to weasel out of paying their fair share, which is what often happens now. I say that there should be NO DEDUCTIONS AT ALL.

Pyrrho

03-06-2006, 03:38 PM

...
And how exactly did we go from "Poor people starve to death" to "poor people = fat people" in 50 years?!?! Unbelievable!

....

The reason that many poor people are fat is that bad, fattening food is cheap and readily available. The price for fast food has not kept pace with inflation, and if you are the working poor with two jobs to make ends meet, you may end up eating too much fast food for your own good because that is about all you have time for, and is about all you can afford.

Pyrrho

03-06-2006, 03:47 PM

my example was to show how lazy & unqualified management personal in our government operate on a daily basis but its not their fault alone,50% of the blame for wasteful spending can be laid at the feet of the hourly employee's too, if a supervisior was to ask these road workers to go do something else that was constructive they would surely be confronted with the old (thats not my job) speech & thats where sitting around reading playboy magazines comes into action,thats not my job & you cant make me!

this is how local & state employee's operate weather they be salary or hourly,once a person signs on as a government employee they are set for life & they know it too,unqualified & lazy personel cant be fired,at best they just get transfered to some other department.

this type of behavior is extremely previlant in our government & has caused alot of cities/states to outsource such things as garbage disposal & maintance of city buildings, this type of poor work ethics & poor quality workmanship has also caused most states & cities to outsource all of their road work (except patching) to outside contractors who can & will be held accountable for costs & quality,things that government employee's cannot be held accountable for.

just because a guy reports for work does not mean he is deserving a paycheck.

One of the reasons for "outsourcing" jobs is graft rather than efficiency. You see, if you award a big contract to your friends, they can give you some of the money back (perhaps via legal "campaign contributions", perhaps in cash). You don't get to keep the money yourself if you are in charge and you have government employees do the work. (If necessary, you can try to screw up the government system enough so that the idea that only outside workers can do the job well enough will be believed by the voters.) Also, many outside contractors are not held accountable for their work, and often get more money for "cost overruns" when they need more money to do the job than what they said they needed in the first place. You obviously either don't live in the U.S. or you haven't been paying attention if you believe that outside contractors are held accountable.

Pyrrho

03-06-2006, 03:52 PM

Absolutely! More accurately they deserve responsibility and accountability and the state MUST have the right to enforce this.

Don't focus on the individual, but the system that allows this to happen or encourages wastefullness. There are always tasks to be done and if you can't repair a pothole, then it is a good day to pick up some litter... Which should be spelled out in the employee's responsibilities. That it IS part of their job. That when the rain comes, you will continue to get a paycheck as long as you work hard and are responsible.

The system can be improved if someone with any power wanted it to be and it would reduce costs while improving overall quality.

Teachers and the school system is an excellent example of not enough responsibility being placed on the system. Some children need to be left behind, so the rest can flourish.

Indeed, some children do need to be left behind. Of course, one can try to place them in other classes that may meet their needs, or if they are simply trouble makers who make no effort to learn, then they need to be thrown out of school until they change their ways.

And, of course, teachers need to be allowed to fail students who deserve to fail. Otherwise we end up with "graduates" who can't read and write, like we have now.

Buckle-meister

03-07-2006, 10:32 AM

I agree, and I do not have children. But I do want your children well educated, as one of them might be my doctor one day, and then it will matter very much for my quality of life.

So what you're saying is that you'd like 'his' children to be educated for selfish reasons rather than because they should be educated for their own sake? :rolleyes:

When I went to college, I remember the financial aid system was set up such that working all summer and saving money meant that one would be given less aid. So working was a stupid thing to do, unless one spent every penny and would then qualify for the same aid as someone who didn't work!

No, working was not 'a stupid thing to do'. Regardless of the fact that working should've given you experiance (presumably you are encouraged to find work in the field you're studying in?) that not working wouldn't, the fact of the matter is that aid is by definition for those who need it. Whether or not people abuse the system is an altogether separate matter.

...of course, teachers need to be allowed to fail students who deserve to fail. Otherwise we end up with "graduates" who can't read and write, like we have now.

That's a rather all-encompassing statement. Are you sure you're standing on solid ground? :rolleyes:

jaxvon

03-07-2006, 10:35 AM

I support Pyrro. The schools need higher standards. Students that fail classes need to fail grades. Students that take all gym classes shouldn't be able to earn the same GPA as students that take hard academic classes.

Buckle-meister

03-07-2006, 10:36 AM

Students that take all gym classes shouldn't be able to earn the same GPA as students that take hard academic classes.

Spoken like a true academic. :rolleyes:

jaxvon

03-07-2006, 10:40 AM

Spoken like a true academic. :rolleyes:

Of course I'm protecting my own interests! Seriously though, when one looks at the way the job market is going in the US and the skills that are needed to get a job that pays enough to live on, gym classes aren't going to help you. School is supposed to educate you and help prepare you for life on your own.

shokhead

03-07-2006, 10:49 AM

Indeed, some children do need to be left behind. Of course, one can try to place them in other classes that may meet their needs, or if they are simply trouble makers who make no effort to learn, then they need to be thrown out of school until they change their ways.

And, of course, teachers need to be allowed to fail students who deserve to fail. Otherwise we end up with "graduates" who can't read and write, like we have now.

Some parents wont hear of it,having there kid repeat because its the best thing. The parents pride would be hurt. Around here,after the third or forth kids pops out,the older kid starts staying home from school to help mom babysit,that would be from 5th grade up. Lets see,school breakfast starts at 7am,parent drives up to school in pj's and curlers and dumps the kid out at 6am,of course nobody here to watch the kid. After school playground and supervision is over at 4pm,same kids still here hanging until same parent that looks the same picks them up,around dark. This doesnt change except for the amount of kids this happens to,its always growing. Parents are a wonderful thing. BTW,we had a student and parent that came in to get there free 5th grade camp paper because they didnt have the money to send them to camp. We donate every year so the needy can go. This low life parent had the custom nails going on with more gold then i own and some $$ fake hair.

Pyrrho

03-07-2006, 12:49 PM

So what you're saying is that you'd like 'his' children to be educated for selfish reasons rather than because they should be educated for their own sake? :rolleyes:

I said that because of the selfish things other people have said in this thread. Appealing to something as elevated as "morality" will not work with many people. Education is good for the children, and their education is good for me. It is a win-win situation, which is something that many people seem to fail to grasp. If people are fine with paying for other's education for altruistic reasons, I have nothing to say against it. I simply meant to point out the fact that there are good selfish reasons to want it as well.

As you do not live in the U.S., perhaps you are not aware of the mythology of this backward country, in which many people foolishly believe that they are not part of a society, and that society does not affect them. Many people here believe that people are alone as individuals; never mind the fact that the vast majority of them are totally dependant on others for their survival, and would starve to death in a very short period of time were it not for the actions of others. So the good of society is not always thought of as a goal; people often look to their own good. I simply mean to show people that their own interests are intimately tied to those of others. I am sorry if there was a misunderstanding due to societal differences.

(As a side note, we have never produced a philospher even remotely as good as your best, David Hume.)

No, working was not 'a stupid thing to do'. Regardless of the fact that working should've given you experiance (presumably you are encouraged to find work in the field you're studying in?) that not working wouldn't, the fact of the matter is that aid is by definition for those who need it. Whether or not people abuse the system is an altogether separate matter.

You presume incorrectly. The work has nothing to do with one's education; it is all about earning money to go to school (in the context of my original statement).

That's a rather all-encompassing statement. Are you sure you're standing on solid ground? :rolleyes:

Do you have anything useful to suggest that might have been wrong with what I said, or are you just trying to say that I am wrong without bothering to explain yourself? Do you seriously believe that teachers should not be allowed to fail students? If so, what, exactly, does "passing" even mean?

Pyrrho

03-07-2006, 12:59 PM

Some parents wont hear of it,having there kid repeat because its the best thing. The parents pride would be hurt. Around here,after the third or forth kids pops out,the older kid starts staying home from school to help mom babysit,that would be from 5th grade up. Lets see,school breakfast starts at 7am,parent drives up to school in pj's and curlers and dumps the kid out at 6am,of course nobody here to watch the kid. After school playground and supervision is over at 4pm,same kids still here hanging until same parent that looks the same picks them up,around dark. This doesnt change except for the amount of kids this happens to,its always growing. Parents are a wonderful thing. BTW,we had a student and parent that came in to get there free 5th grade camp paper because they didnt have the money to send them to camp. We donate every year so the needy can go. This low life parent had the custom nails going on with more gold then i own and some $$ fake hair.

Of course parents won't hear of it! That is why we have high school graduates in the U.S. who can't read or write!

What I am saying is not what people want, but what must be if we are to avoid the problems that we now have in the U.S. Of course I am not stupid enough to suppose that this is going to change any time soon. Indeed, the 'rot' has been creeping upwards, so that a college degree means quite a bit less than it once did. I expect it to creep into graduate school (if it hasn't already), not get better.

50 years ago, a high school diploma meant something in the U.S., but not anymore. Of course, I do not mean to imply that everything is worse, as the opportunities for minorities (women and non-"white" people) have improved, and that is a good thing. But if we dumb down the education, it is no good for anyone. So I am not suggesting a return to "the good old days", but we need standards, or we have no real education, and diplomas and degrees mean nothing.

Buckle-meister

03-07-2006, 01:28 PM

I said that because of the selfish things other people have said in this thread.

Uh, ok. Sort of like two wrongs making a right? :confused:

Education is good for the children, and their education is good for me. It is a win-win situation, which is something that many people seem to fail to grasp. If people are fine with paying for other's education for altruistic reasons, I have nothing to say against it. I simply meant to point out the fact that there are good selfish reasons to want it as well.

That last bit's great! I thought it really funny. Thanks for that. :D

As you do not live in the U.S., perhaps you are not aware of the mythology of this backward country, in which many people foolishly believe that they are not part of a society, and that society does not affect them.

I doubt there's much difference between the cities of this world. Humans tend to behave as humans regardless of which continent they live on.

(As a side note, we have never produced a philospher even remotely as good as your best, David Hume.)

Never 'eard of 'im. Is 'e from 'ackney? :D

Do you have anything useful to suggest that might have been wrong with what I said, or are you just trying to say that I am wrong without bothering to explain yourself?

I wasn't aware I needed to explain myself to you.

Do you seriously believe that teachers should not be allowed to fail students?

No, of course not.

BMXTRIX

03-07-2006, 01:30 PM

Pyrrho is hitting on exactly the type of stuff that is the core of the problem. There are hard things to be done and they aren't all politically correct. Politicians - and politics be damned! A failing student should not be allowed to pass. A dropout irresponsible kid should not be the key prospect for the military. A employee who works for the state should be expected to work every day he is paid - and have that work be productive.

The issues are not ones that can be dealt with because nobody CAN be elected who will force the tough love decisions down the throats of others. There is nobody who is forcing the "No child left behind... unless he's a complete buttwipe" policy. There's nobody saying "If you don't work today because it is raining, and you won't do this other task, then you are fired." It isn't being said because it CAN'T be said by the managers in charge of others.

All to make things better for all Americans... across the board - and not all of it is easy to deal with.

Heck, not all of it can even be dealt with without a serious change in overall policy.

Rock&Roll Ninja

03-07-2006, 06:14 PM

A dropout irresponsible kid should not be the key prospect for the military.

When I signed-up you had to have a HS diploma minimum for any branch. They're probably not so picky now.....

Matt34

03-07-2006, 07:20 PM

When I signed-up you had to have a HS diploma minimum for any branch. They're probably not so picky now.....

They are letting GED recipients in now.

Pyrrho

03-08-2006, 11:01 PM

Uh, ok. Sort of like two wrongs making a right? :confused:
...

You are still misunderstanding my point. There are those who, for selfish reasons, do not want to pay for part of the education of the children of others. I meant to point out the fact that there are selfish reasons to pay for part of the education of the children of others. I did not think that appealing to morality would be effective when dealing with someone who has stated that they do not care about others, and that they only care about themselves. So I meant to explain why it is in their own best interest to care about others, or, if you don't like the way I have expressed that, their own interests are tied to the interests of others, and therefore it is in their own best interests to promote the interests of others. I did not mean to make them moral people thereby; I merely hoped that they might reconsider their position based upon their own self interest.

...
I doubt there's much difference between the cities of this world. Humans tend to behave as humans regardless of which continent they live on.
...

Human nature isn't different in different places, but the mythology is different in different places, and that can affect attitudes and behaviors.

Buckeye_Nut

03-10-2006, 02:11 PM

philh

03-13-2006, 11:13 AM

You are still misunderstanding my point. There are those who, for selfish reasons, do not want to pay for part of the education of the children of others. I meant to point out the fact that there are selfish reasons to pay for part of the education of the children of others.

Are these the same people who drive on roads designed for trucks? they don't drive a truck, why should they pay for them. I've never called the police, so why should I pay for police services? Kids are a part of living in society. I know you aren't the one advocating that we shouldn't share the expense of educating society's children, but this post finally got to me.

Our Govt is absolutely out of control. Heard an intersting interview this morning on the local AM superstation. Wish I had written down the persons name or organization name, because he had a lot of good things to say about pork. My wife and I are involved in the local govt, and it's absolutely amazing to watch the attitude at even the local levels.

shokhead

03-13-2006, 11:47 AM

You dont know what waste is until you have worked in the school district.

Mort Corey

03-13-2006, 05:14 PM

I pay way too much in taxes. Give me some more tax breaks!! I feel thankful that I dont live in one of those socialist nations, because I couldnt imagine paying more than 1/3rd to the feds. Some nations are much, much worse. They need to cut welfare more and put those 'career' welfare folks to work.

If only it were that cheap....30% Feds, 15% FICA, 10% State.....plus sales taxes, property taxes, excise taxes (and a myriad of hidden taxes) starts adding up to indentured servitude.....at least the old sharecroppers used to keep half.

Mort (who thinks that we are closer to national socialists than just plain garden variety socialists in the US)

Matt34

03-13-2006, 09:42 PM

You dont know what waste is until you have worked in the Federal government.

There, fixed it for ya. You should see the money that is spent here on post just for MWR(Morale Welfare and Recreation) These guys are out of control and surprisingly enough, soldiers rarely reap the benefits of it.

BMXTRIX

03-13-2006, 09:48 PM

I work for an A/V company specializing in government installations. Yes, it's my bread and butter, but their wastefullness is beyond understanding. NO used product, NO open box merchandise, million dollar rooms with $100,000 custom built furniture.

The truth? A projector and some tables from Wal-Mart is what they really need.

audiohead01

12-11-2006, 11:10 AM

gmichael

12-11-2006, 11:25 AM

Hi All,
I too feel the need to vent over taxes, I live on the East Coast NY,NJ and it is not so much the taxes, you can always move... Its the corruption, for instance google umdnj and read about the tens of millions of tax payer money handed out as if they were operating a mob family. It is unbelievable. The people here keep voting the corruption into office and wonder why they are paying 7-10 k a year in property taxes. I think the downfall of the public school system, yes there has been a downfall, is directly related to teachers unions... tenure in 3 years! What !!!!
ahhhh, I feel a lil better, I just cant believe I live in a state where they vote for corruption everytime, NJ- the stupid state. but then again I too can move ????:cool:

One of the reasons I moved to PA. My taxes here: $4k/yr. Taxes on the same (or similar) house in NY: Almost $10k/yr. And I got nothing extra for it. In fact, I'm getting more here. Add in that the same house would also cost 40 to 50% more? Thats even if you can find a builder who would build such a small house. Several builders in NY laughed at me when I told them what I was looking for. It seems they can't be bothered with anything under $500k. Oops, sorry. I got off topic a bit.
Yeah, taxes are way high in NY/NJ for what you are getting.
I used to commute into Westchester county from Orange. Weschester's taxes are much higher. But as I crossed from Putnum into Westchest the road would suddenly turn to ice. What? With all those taxes they can't afford salt? That money must be ending up in someone's pocket.