Petition to ban political threads

[sts9fan]

I really think political threads should be banned. I don't think any one is going to be swayed either way so lets just talk audio and beer

[wilkenboy]

Keep it outta the forum, please.

Folks, as much as I enjoy the lively debate and discussion, its an A/V forum. Debates on politics and religion tend to polarize members, detract from my enjoyment, and clutter otherwise good info.

There are forums for these things. I'm pretty sure they rarely discuss the finer points of speaker break-in physics there.

~Josh

[Shadow_Ferret]

As much as I dislike political debates, no one is forcing you to read and participate in them.

[howie85]

You forgot to put
" I dont know"
"undecided?" and
"what is a politic?"
in the choices. Also your petition is biased to beer lovers. I think the ACLU will have to look into this matter........:p :p :eek:

[wilkenboy]

As much as I dislike political debates, no one is forcing you to read and participate in them.

Agreed, but when they clutter otherwise good threads they detract from the value of the forum.

If they are appropriately placed in a seperate section of the forum (such as the Steam Vent) that's fine I suppose, but I think what does on there will still polarize some forum members and discourage good A/V discussion in other sections. Good threads getting derailed into political / religious debates is annoying and should be stopped.

(edit: I think in general this forum does a good job of staying on track. I just don't want it to turn into the AVSforum. You can't get 10 posts into a topic before it gets derailed into some off-topic debate)

~Josh

[Sheep]

Add religion to that and you have my vote.

SheepStar

[sts9fan]

Well due to the fact that us Americans pretty much live in a theocracy I count all superstisious belifs as politics:o

[racquetman]

First we ban politics, then religion . . . then someone else comes along wanting to ban something else. Pretty soon the steam vent has a disclaimer on it a mile long saying what you can and can't talk about. Is that really what you guys want? Not that any of us has the power to make this happen any way.

It's the steam vent. It isn't cluttering up anything. It's pretty rare that there is any A/V talk in the steam vent, so explain to me what it is cluttering?! Also, as was said, no one is forcing you to read it!! Exercise some will power - resist the temptation. I know we all think we are experts on everything and that we have to chime in with comments saying how we are right and the other person is wrong, but try hard to resist.

I dislike the political threads as much as the next guy, especially when you get some idiot who's convinced he has all the answers and that everything he thinks is right. I try to add some humor and light-heartedness to these threads when possible, but someone always comes along, takes my comments the wrong way, and blows a gasket in the process.

Sts9fan, you seem a bit arrogant to me. You always chime into these threads like you know everything and you criticize anyone who doesn't agree with you. I know this behavior very well - I used to be the same way. Being on this forum has helped me to realize that there are many people out there with many opinions and plenty of people who have more knowledge on certain subjects than I. Of course maybe you just know everything - I doubt it though.

How about you don't decide what everybody else gets to talk about and we'll leave it at that.

[sts9fan]

Sts9fan, you seem a bit arrogant to me. You always chime into these threads like you know everything and you criticize anyone who doesn't agree with you. I know this behavior very well - I used to be the same way. Being on this forum has helped me to realize that there are many people out there with many opinions and plenty of people who have more knowledge on certain subjects than I. Of course maybe you just know everything - I doubt it though.


Actually I am VERY arrogant thanks for noticing!!:D

[racquetman]

Actually I am VERY arrogant thanks for noticing!!:D

Well, that makes two of us then ;) .

[BMXTRIX]

I don't really see much in the way of political threads anywhere except the steam vent and even then they are just a bit of the stuff going on.

The most political stuff I see here is the discussion of what does and does not constitute snake oil and whether cables make a difference, etc.

Most of all - I just can't stand silly censorship. Hijackers disrupting threads constantly is worthy of having a person thrown off these forums... IMO. But, I'm not a moderator.

If off-topic threads are started in the wrong forums - then the moderators should be handling it.

If you (anyone) aren't happy being in the minority on opinion - or have nothing to say about a topic - then don't say it. Don't read it, close your browser, or simply stay out of the Steam Vent.

Frankly, there are so many of the same-ol' same-ol' discussions in the other forums that I often can use some good political or religious debate to keep me on my toes. Hopefully those who I am discussing it with do take what may be a differring opinion in good spirits and don't get carried away. But, there are always a few wackos out there.

And they can't always be me.

Can they?

[racquetman]

Frankly, there are so many of the same-ol' same-ol' discussions in the other forums that I often can use some good political or religious debate to keep me on my toes. Hopefully those who I am discussing it with do take what may be a differring opinion in good spirits and don't get carried away. But, there are always a few wackos out there.

I couldn't agree with you more. The steam vent offers some much needed variety. If you don't get all high and mighty and have some fun with it, you might enjoy the threads more.

[Tomorrow]

I really think political threads should be banned. I don't think any one is going to be swayed either way so lets just talk audio and beer

Do you also think that political 'signatures' should be banned from this forum? Hmmm? You seem to put yours everywhere.

Here's a thought for you, sts9. Why don't you use some of that self-proclaimed intelligence and arrogance and turn it into a positive action that results in some affirmative impact? Divisive, biased output from you only returns to you in the same form.

Critics are a dime a dozen and are generally useless in the scheme of things. You want things to be better? Always start with yourself.

[sts9fan]

Do you also think that political 'signatures' should be banned from this forum? Hmmm? You seem to put yours everywhere.

Here's a thought for you, sts9. Why don't you use some of that self-proclaimed intelligence and arrogance and turn it into a positive action that results in some affirmative impact? Divisive, biased output from you only returns to you in the same form.

Critics are a dime a dozen and are generally useless in the scheme of things. You want things to be better? Always start with yourself.


I would remove my signature if a rule was posted. Is it political? What issue does it address?? What do you mean I post it everywhere?? I don't get it you seem to post yours everywhere also. Now I must go find the thread where I discuss what I do to TRY and make a VERY small difference in the world.

[miklorsmith]

I thought the Intelligent Design Ruling thread was one of the most interesting I've seen anywhere. In all those posts, there was almost no flaming, despite the tremendous polarity of views. I was most impressed that it didn't crash and burn in a fireball of fury.

It gave me further appreciation for members here that I didn't know much about. If we were more inclined to be jerks, I might have a different opinion. As it stands, I'm voting to keep religion and politics.

[majorloser]

Isn't voting a form of democratic expression? Than by this tread alone you are contributing to the political environment you so hate :p

[majorloser]

Hijackers disrupting threads constantly is worthy of having a person thrown off these forums... IMO. But, I'm not a moderator.


Hey, we haven't talked about airplanes in awhile........how about it RJ? :D


If it wasn't for the political threads we would be able to keep our "Resident Highlander" abreast of the American political system.

EDIT: Oh, and BMXTRIX, you're not the only wacko. Some of us just hide it better......

[Leprkon]

the Steam Vent says "just about anything you'd like to talk about". So if I was to want to talk about a former President who did nothing but get laid, go to court, and play golf and wonders why he can't be on the list of "Great Presidents", I feel not only able, but obliged...

I just promise to keep it out of all the other topics ! :D

[Hanse18]

When was the last time you heard a new, valid political point? It's the same stuff over and over. If people aren't sure about their beliefs, they probably aren't going to join the debate in the first place.

And statistics and information in general can be exploited so rediculously, the real truth is almost never known. Maybe we should start a post teaching a college statistics course, learn about SRS's, data exploitation, and all that other junk, and then have a discussion. Then the posts might actually accomplish something, instead of just going back and forth about how each other's information isn't correct.

It isn't my right to say whether or not political discussions should be allowed, but it is my belief that nothing is ever accomplished, hence my pro vote. I think it should just be an accepted rule, not something the moderators actually enforce, just an unwritten agreement.

[mike c]

In order of priority for discussion...
it would be Titties - Audio - Beer

nerds! who said we should limit discussion to Audio and Beer?

[racquetman]

When was the last time you heard a new, valid political point?

When was the last time you heard a new, valid point about a speaker or a cable?????!!!!!

[tbewick]

'And statistics and information in general can be exploited so rediculously, the real truth is almost never known. Maybe we should start a post teaching a college statistics course, learn about SRS's, data exploitation, and all that other junk, and then have a discussion. Then the posts might actually accomplish something, instead of just going back and forth about how each other's information isn't correct.' - Hanse18

That sounds a bit cynical. I'd say it all depends on how well you argue your case. Most of the time the threads seem to reach a concensus. I've certainly learned quite a lot by using this forum. To add another irritating signature/quote - 'Conflict is the engine of progress' - Karl Marx.

As for the political threads, most of the time I'm too lazy to look at them. I can't think of any good reason to ban them.

[mikemorrow]

Me to. Lets just Go into the garage, listen to the 1976 Pinto radio, and have a beer

[highfihoney]

well, im all for political discussions as long as everybody keeps their heads,we just had a discussion a few weeks back & nobody got hurt feelings,atleast i didnt, i had fun discussing terrorists & such & it wasnt boring,whats the harm in it :)

sometimes you gotta just say TO H*!! WITH IT & stir up the pot to keep things lively,unless everybody would prefer the audiogon thread format where everybody discusses the new innertube they put under their amp & how much better it made everything sound or my personal favorite thread,whats your favorite patricia barber album,YAWN.

[furrycute]

I vote to ban all religious/political discussions from the steam vent.

[Clint DeBoer]

I vote to ban all people in the steam vent.. oh wait, I mean I vote to ban all people voting to ban all people and topics discussing voting in the steam vent.... or rather people voting to ban religious discussion and voting topics in the steam vent should be banned posthumously and vigorously and then banned. In either case, we're definitely interested in banning all bans of banning persons who discuss banning religious and political discussions in the steam vent provided they are discussing the banning of such topics without the act of banning being part of the discussion.

[furrycute]

I vote to ban all people in the steam vent.. oh wait, I mean I vote to ban all people voting to ban all people and topics discussing voting in the steam vent.... or rather people voting to ban religious discussion and voting topics in the steam vent should be banned posthumously and vigorously and then banned. In either case, we're definitely interested in banning all bans of banning persons who discuss banning religious and political discussions in the steam vent provided they are discussing the banning of such topics without the act of banning being part of the discussion.


:confused: :eek:

[Mr. Lamb Fries]

I vote to ban Clint for...voting to ban all people in the steam vent.. oh wait, I mean I vote to ban all people voting to ban all people and topics discussing voting in the steam vent.... or rather people voting to ban religious discussion and voting topics in the steam vent should be banned posthumously and vigorously and then banned. In either case, we're definitely interested in banning all bans of banning persons who discuss banning religious and political discussions in the steam vent provided they are discussing the banning of such topics without the act of banning being part of the discussion.

[Matt34]

Ban 'em all!













Me included of course.;)

[mulester7]

I vote to ban all people in the steam vent.. oh wait, I mean I vote to ban all people voting to ban all people and topics discussing voting in the steam vent.... or rather people voting to ban religious discussion and voting topics in the steam vent should be banned posthumously and vigorously and then banned. In either case, we're definitely interested in banning all bans of banning persons who discuss banning religious and political discussions in the steam vent provided they are discussing the banning of such topics without the act of banning being part of the discussion......I read (red) all the way through this and passed out cold.....

[furrycute]

I vote to ban Clint...


Now he can ban me.:(

[Hi Ho]

I see no problem with political threads and I personally find them to be very interesting. As long as they stay in the Steam Vent, I see no reason to ban them.

[Sheep]

I see no problem with political threads and I personally find them to be very interesting. As long as they stay in the Steam Vent, I see no reason to ban them.
I think you meant to say "As long as they stay UNDER CONTROL..."

I voted yes because they always get out of hand. Why take the risk..?

SheepStar

[Buckeyefan 1]

So far the "no's" have it, 23 to 18.

I have to apologize, as this thread is most likely due to my political thread. I was meaning to elaborate on that thread, but didn't get a chance to because it got out of hand. I should have titled the thread Hate Rock and not labeled them conservatives.

The reason for that thread was a show I watched on Discovery Times about Hate Rock. Did anyone see it? Excellent documentary. It just goes to show (and maybe these guys are mislabeled "far right") that if something gets too far out on the wing, it could be bad.

"Investigative reporter Donal MacIntyre explores the disturbing rise ofthe racist and anti-semitic music industry across North America andEurope. MacIntyre discovers 'hate rock' music is attracting youngpeople and has ties to ultra right wing movements."


http://times.discovery.com/tvlistings/series.jsp?series=116363&gid=0&channel=DTC

[MacManNM]

So far the "no's" have it, 23 to 18.

I have to apologize, as this thread is most likely due to my political thread. I was meaning to elaborate on that thread, but didn't get a chance to because it got out of hand. I should have titled the thread Hate Rock and not labeled them conservatives.

The reason for that thread was a show I watched on Discovery Times about Hate Rock. Did anyone see it? Excellent documentary. It just goes to show (and maybe these guys are mislabeled "far right") that if something gets too far out on the wing, it could be bad.

"Investigative reporter Donal MacIntyre explores the disturbing rise ofthe racist and anti-semitic music industry across North America andEurope. MacIntyre discovers 'hate rock' music is attracting youngpeople and has ties to ultra right wing movements."


http://times.discovery.com/tvlistings/series.jsp?series=116363&gid=0&channel=DTC

There are reasons for this far right and far left behavior. I look at it like this, my wife is really easy on our kids, and she doesn’t discipline them much. It drives me nuts. So I end up going overboard, and being too hard on them. Is it their fault? No, it’s mine, but my actions are a direct result of my wife’s behavior. It’s the same way with politics. I work pretty hard, and I make a good wage. But I am penalized for succeeding. The top 20% of income earners in this country pay 80% of the taxes. I get pissed because I’m supporting the lower income families. On that note, they want to raise minimum wage to $7 an hr here in NM. What a joke, the argument is that if you make minimum wage, you can’t support a family. Well guess what? Minimum wage is for entry-level people with no skill. If you want to support a family then go to school and learn a trade. People like me, are not only footing the bill for the taxes, now I am going to end up paying $5 for a cheeseburger.

This is the kind of thing that pushes my party farther right. In turn, the other side goes farther left to compensate. If this country went back to what the founding fathers intended, everything would be fine.

You are guaranteed the right to pursue happiness.

You are not guaranteed a house, a job, healthcare, food stamps, a free ride or happiness.

[furrycute]

The top 20% of income earners in this country pay 80% of the taxes.


The top 1% of income earners hardly pay any taxes at all. They literally have legions of accountants that are constantly looking for tax loopholes, and the tax laws are written in their favor because of their political connections.

And don't forget, the top 1% of income earners in this country probably hold about 60% of this nation's wealth. That can hardly be called "balanced."

It is really the middle class America with annual incomes between $80K and $200K that are bearing the brunt of America's tax burden.



And the recently enacted tax cuts for the super rich, they literally ate away the budget surplus accumulated in the Clinton years. It's obscene.

[sts9fan]

I work pretty hard, and I make a good wage. But I am penalized for succeeding. The top 20% of income earners in this country pay 80% of the taxes. I get pissed because I’m supporting the lower income families. On that note, they want to raise minimum wage to $7 an hr here in NM. What a joke, the argument is that if you make minimum wage, you can’t support a family. Well guess what? Minimum wage is for entry-level people with no skill. If you want to support a family then go to school and learn a trade. People like me, are not only footing the bill for the taxes, now I am going to end up paying $5 for a cheeseburger.

This is the kind of thing that pushes my party farther right. In turn, the other side goes farther left to compensate. If this country went back to what the founding fathers intended, everything would be fine.

You are guaranteed the right to pursue happiness.

You are not guaranteed a house, a job, healthcare, food stamps, a free ride or happiness.


Not that you care (for anyone but yourself) but you are a bad person. You are against raising the minuimum wage to $7 so you can get a burger for under $5??? That is disgusting! The fact is that not everyone can get a high paying job and there will be poor people needing the help of the more fortunate. I make a good living and I am glad that my taxes go to helping these people!! You really should think of others more not jsut yourself and your ratass brood which I am sure you are raising to be as much a pox on this country as you are. You do not know what the founding fathers intended and nither do I. Nobody does because times change and saying you or Rush does know just makes you look like the fool you are.
You want to know what happens without the social programs we have?? We get slums like Rio or Sao Palo. Then we get street childern (which we know you don't care about) living out of landfills. The street childern become live long criminals and then people start getting shot in the street for a $2 burger. We could always start up death squads like in Romania and Brazil which I am sure you would join right up..
Do you really think that you can live in the nice area you do without the help of the government?

Karma B!tches

[MacManNM]

The top 1% of income earners hardly pay any taxes at all. They literally have legions of accountants that are constantly looking for tax loopholes, and the tax laws are written in their favor because of their political connections.

And don't forget, the top 1% of income earners in this country probably hold about 60% of this nation's wealth. That can hardly be called "balanced."

It is really the middle class America with annual incomes between $80K and $200K that are bearing the brunt of America's tax burden.



And the recently enacted tax cuts for the super rich, they literally ate away the budget surplus accumulated in the Clinton years. It's obscene.

Yes and people that make between 0-40k actually get paid by the government. How is this fair? This is why we need a flat tax. Budget surplus? Please, no such thing. The national debt means absolutely nothing. It’s a political term used during elections, that’s it. Look, everyone needs to realize that the government is not run by politicians, but by lobbyists. The sooner we stop this, the better off we are. Do you really think it makes a damn bit of difference who is in office? You get there by making promises, all the while you are scheming with the big corporate guys, and as soon as you get elected, you take care of the corporations, and screw the people. They ALL do it, Democrats, Republicans, and Independents, all of them.

[sts9fan]

Flat tax is a bit Socialist don't you think?? Don't want to be called a Pinko do ya??:eek:

[MacManNM]

Not that you care (for anyone but yourself) but you are a bad person. You are against raising the minuimum wage to $7 so you can get a burger for under $5??? That is disgusting! The fact is that not everyone can get a high paying job and there will be poor people needing the help of the more fortunate. I make a good living and I am glad that my taxes go to helping these people!! You really should think of others more not jsut yourself and your ratass brood which I am sure you are raising to be as much a pox on this country as you are. You do not know what the founding fathers intended and nither do I. Nobody does because times change and saying you or Rush does know just makes you look like the fool you are.
You want to know what happens without the social programs we have?? We get slums like Rio or Sao Palo. Then we get street childern (which we know you don't care about) living out of landfills. The street childern become live long criminals and then people start getting shot in the street for a $2 burger. We could always start up death squads like in Romania and Brazil which I am sure you would join right up..
Do you really think that you can live in the nice area you do without the help of the government?

Karma B!tches

If you want to help others then go ahead, why should I have to? You want to keep crime down? Then lets make prison like it used to be, commit a crime go to jail, you only eat if one of your family or friends brings you food. See what happens to the crime rate then. You libs are too nice. I worked my way up from nothing, I educated myself, I worked and got where I am today by myself. No help form anyone. If I can do it then so can anyone. Get off your high horse. You don't know what it's like searching for things to sell, or looking in the street for change so you can buy milk for the kids. I do, and I got out of it.

[MacManNM]

Flat tax is a bit Socialist don't you think?? Don't want to be called a Pinko do ya??:eek:


Sure 2% sales tax across the board, thats socialist? So if everyone contributes, thats socialist, but government run health care isn't?

[sts9fan]

If you want to help others then go ahead, why should I have to? You want to keep crime down? Then lets make prison like it used to be, commit a crime go to jail, you only eat if one of your family or friends brings you food. See what happens to the crime rate then. You libs are too nice. I worked my way up from nothing, I educated myself, I worked and got where I am today by myself. No help form anyone. If I can do it then so can anyone. Get off your high horse. You don't know what it's like searching for things to sell, or looking in the street for change so you can buy milk for the kids. I do, and I got out of it.

Man you are textbook!! I get it now!!:)

You had it rough (so you claim) and now you want others to suffer like you did. Talk about the human condition huh??!! Why not try to prevent others from having to suffer like you did?? Whats wrong with that? You basicly say you want people to suffer. I feel bad for you and your family. Do you kick your dog??

[MacManNM]

Man you are textbook!! I get it now!!:)

You had it rough (so you claim) and now you want others to suffer like you did. Talk about the human condition huh??!! Why not try to prevent others from having to suffer like you did?? Whats wrong with that? You basicly say you want people to suffer. I feel bad for you and your family. Do you kick your dog??


I'll tell you what's wrong with it. People are lazy. When you hand them something for free, they expect it. When they are raised in this fashion, it breeds generations of lazy people. The more money you throw at it, the worse the problem gets. Now there is an expectation that “the government wont let me die, so I don’t have to do anything”. You really think there are poor people in this country? How many of those “poor” people have a tv, and cable, and a vcr, a DVD, a car? Is that poor? I think not. People need motivation to get off their asses and work. Handing them free food and shelter motivates no one. People used to be ashamed to be on welfare, now it’s a part of their life.

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Yes and people that make between 0-40k actually get paid by the government. How is this fair?

My check must have got lost in the mail every week .....

[MacManNM]

Man you are textbook!! I get it now!!:)

You had it rough (so you claim) and now you want others to suffer like you did. Talk about the human condition huh??!! Why not try to prevent others from having to suffer like you did?? Whats wrong with that? You basicly say you want people to suffer. I feel bad for you and your family. Do you kick your dog??


No, I don’t want people to suffer, I want them to achieve. They never will with handouts.

You libs are all the same, you claim to care about the environment, yet you drive SUV’s, you care about the poor, so you blast the rich and say they don’t do anything about it. Where do you think all of those tax breaks come from? Charity. You want to help? Go volunteer at the boys club; it is worth more than any money you pay in taxes. Will you do that? I’d bet not.

[sts9fan]

Your bitter at what you had to go through that is the long and short of it. Well guess what. You are going to be paying for all these people for the rest of your life. How ya like them apples?

[sts9fan]

You libs are all the same, you claim to care about the environment, yet you drive SUV’s, you care about the poor, so you blast the rich and say they don’t do anything about it. Where do you think all of those tax breaks come from? Charity. You want to help? Go volunteer at the boys club; it is worth more than any money you pay in taxes. Will you do that? I’d bet not.


You have no clue. I drive a honda civic. Yes I am a chemist and my wife a lawyer. I can afford MUCH more but my junk is big enough that it does not need enhancment. Also I do serve food at a local homeless shelter and no I do not kick the homeless when they are down.

[MacManNM]

See, a person can't have a logical debate with you people. I bring up a point, and you answer with insults, instead of bringing up some sort of argument.

[MacManNM]

My check must have got lost in the mail every week .....


It of course depends on how many deductions you have. I have a buddy, that was making 80k/yr, he has 6 kids, and would get paid 2k/yr by the govt.

[BMXTRIX]

I hate when those AVS guys find their way over here. ;) ;D

Really, the issue at hand is that THIS topic has now been hijacked and the original poster is very much now someone I would question for allowing it to continue.

MacMann misses the entire concept of what hijacking a thread means and then immediately starts saying things which may be arguable, and does so in a decent manner, but in the TOTAL wrong post.

But, the original poster...
sts9fan: "Not that you care (for anyone but yourself) but you are a bad person."

This is why perhaps some people should refrain from posting period. Insulting others should never be acceptable behaviour and responses that are not in line with a discussion topic should be dealt with by moderators. Not that Clint should necessarily be bothered, but a decent moderator of the Steam Vent can PM people directly and remove posts directly that are out of line with the positive vibe these forums have.

Some people may need to be banned for going after other people, instead of arguing the case in discussion.

Others need to just keep their mouths shut for a complete inability to be civil to other humans when they disagree.

You don't agree with me? Man, what a bunch of fags. ;) :D ;)

[MacManNM]

Technically Buck hijacked the thread, I just went with it. But isn't that what the steam vent is about? Utter chaos? Just kidding. I don’t have a problem talking off topic, as long as people can be civilized. Clint or Gene, can you please move my posts and any other pertaining to the subject matter to a new thread? That way we all can maintain happiness!

Sorry about the off topic.

[sts9fan]

Personally I found that little aside quite amusing in an ironic sort of way. Do to the title of the thread.:)

off to work

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Technically Buck hijacked the thread, I just went with it. But isn't that what the steam vent is about? Utter chaos?

"Two by two with hands of blue... Squish! ... I swallowed a bug."

[furrycute]

Growing up, my family is by no means wealthy. I got through college, grad school essentially on federal/state student aid and student loans. You will be amazed how much assistance a poor college/grad school student can receive from the taxpayers. If it weren't for all those tax supported student financial aid, I would never have gotten through all my schooling. For this I am greatful, and I would like to contribute in turn my share to support other financially disavantaged students.

And I would like to add the myth of an entirely self made made rising up from a poor family. In college and grad school, a financially disavantaged student invariably receive valuable government assistance in the form of educational grants and loans. And even for grade 1-12, if you enroll in public schools, you are invariably receiving a free education supported by tax payers.


A flat tax is by no means fair to the poor. With a flat tax, the poor bear disproportinately a much greater share of the tax burden compared to a progressive tax system.

[BMXTRIX]

Furry it's a good conversation... how about a new topic to discuss it civilly?

[MacManNM]

Growing up, my family is by no means wealthy. I got through college, grad school essentially on federal/state student aid and student loans. You will be amazed how much assistance a poor college/grad school student can receive from the taxpayers. If it weren't for all those tax supported student financial aid, I would never have gotten through all my schooling. For this I am greatful, and I would like to contribute in turn my share to support other financially disavantaged students.

And I would like to add the myth of an entirely self made made rising up from a poor family. In college and grad school, a financially disavantaged student invariably receive valuable government assistance in the form of educational grants and loans. And even for grade 1-12, if you enroll in public schools, you are invariably receiving a free education supported by tax payers.


A flat tax is by no means fair to the poor. With a flat tax, the poor bear disproportinately a much greater share of the tax burden compared to a progressive tax system.

It's called get a job and work through college.


With a flat tax, the poor bear disproportinately a much greater share of the tax burden compared to a progressive tax system

Explain this one. They earn less, spend less and are taxed less. How is that disproportional? Hence the name "FLAT TAX"

[chicagomd]

A flat tax, while it sounds nice, is actually considered a "regressive tax" or a tax that burdens the poor more than the rich because exactly because the poor pay the same percentage of their income in taxes as the rich. The rich can use a higher precentage of their income for non-essential expenses than the poor. If you make $40,000 a year, most of that, like 98% is going towards living expenses, raising the family, etc. If you make $4 Million a year, you might have $1 million dedicated to living, but that is still only 25%. So 5% out hits you less hard than the guy making 40k.

For example:
If you make $30,000 a year and get taxed at a 5% rate you pay $1500. This could mean the difference between heat in the winter and food, depending on your situation.
If you make 300,000 on the other hand...$15,000 is a nice ski trip for the kids to Vail for the week.


The "flat tax" also does not take into account interest, so you billionaires that inherited the family fortune are essentially not taxed at all because they make no actual income.

EDIT: and before anyone jumps all over me, I am just trying to explain why a flat tax is considered regressive. I didn't make it up, and God knows a flat tax would rock for my family.

[miklorsmith]

The greatest experience of my life was college. I worked and took out some loans. My experience would have suffered significantly had I paid my whole bill as I went.

Mac, you are one hardcore dude. You assume everyone else has the same toolkit you did. Not everyone is brilliant. People actually do support families on minimum wage, as much as they can. Believe it or not, there are hardworking people that still need help.

The disproportionality of the flat tax is that wealthier people pay less as a ratio of all their expenses in taxes. Poorer people have a much higher burden paying the same percentage.

I sincerely hope you don't give your kids a dime to teach them the same blackhearted lessons you've somehow absorbed. They should be doing paper routes, working at McD's or whatever else they're legally allowed to do, giving you 100% of their wages to show them how lucky they are to have a place to live and eat.

[howie85]

So if the "poor" pay les tax on a sliding scale as it is today then they should accordingly use less of the services they are paying for??? :rolleyes: Seems they pay the least and get the most from the services provided by taxes.

[MacManNM]

The greatest experience of my life was college. I worked and took out some loans. My experience would have suffered significantly had I paid my whole bill as I went.

Mac, you are one hardcore dude. You assume everyone else has the same toolkit you did. Not everyone is brilliant. People actually do support families on minimum wage, as much as they can. Believe it or not, there are hardworking people that still need help.

The disproportionality of the flat tax is that wealthier people pay less as a ratio of all their expenses in taxes. Poorer people have a much higher burden paying the same percentage.

I sincerely hope you don't give your kids a dime to teach them the same blackhearted lessons you've somehow absorbed. They should be doing paper routes, working at McD's or whatever else they're legally allowed to do, giving you 100% of their wages to show them how lucky they are to have a place to live and eat.

First off, food would be exempt from any sort of logical flat tax, as would clothing.

As for the rest, your arguments are bogus. If you make minimum wage you shouldn't have a family. Period. If people in this country were responsible then this wouldn't even be an issue. They would be smart enough to know what they could or couldn't afford.

My kids do work. They are 10 and 11. They work around the house and make money for it. They are pretty well behaved and know the value of a dollar. They have a very good understanding of a work ethic, even at this age. They will be successful, because values and honor have been instilled in them. I’m sorry if I believe in working for a living, and teaching those values to my children. Maybe I should quit my job and collect welfare, then I can show them that you type of people will never let them starve and that they don’t have to work or try to achieve in this life, just settle for what the govt gives you.

[annunaki]

Not that you care (for anyone but yourself) but you are a bad person. You are against raising the minuimum wage to $7 so you can get a burger for under $5??? That is disgusting! The fact is that not everyone can get a high paying job and there will be poor people needing the help of the more fortunate. I make a good living and I am glad that my taxes go to helping these people!! You really should think of others more not jsut yourself and your ratass brood which I am sure you are raising to be as much a pox on this country as you are. You do not know what the founding fathers intended and nither do I. Nobody does because times change and saying you or Rush does know just makes you look like the fool you are.
You want to know what happens without the social programs we have?? We get slums like Rio or Sao Palo. Then we get street childern (which we know you don't care about) living out of landfills. The street childern become live long criminals and then people start getting shot in the street for a $2 burger. We could always start up death squads like in Romania and Brazil which I am sure you would join right up..
Do you really think that you can live in the nice area you do without the help of the government?

Karma B!tches


If you want socialism so bad, go to China. This IS a deocracy. My god, when will people see that if you stop giving handouts, people HAVE to work for their money, thus creating a sense of responsibility. If you get rid of all the illegal immagrants we now have a ton of jobs for the less fortunate to do and make a living.

Socialism is not progession but rather regression. It takes away the responsibility of the people. This is democracy. I have the power to vote people or myself into office who will sepend my tax dollars the way I would.

The minimum wage was NEVER intended to support a family on. It was a guarantee that you would not be worked to death for pennies.

Just because I feel this way, does not mean all social programs are bad. We need them, but the way they are run needs to change. If we reward people for hard work and finding a job instead of having more kids and staying unemployed, we may have more social progression in this country.

[annunaki]

So if the "poor" pay les tax on a sliding scale as it is today then they should accordingly use less of the services they are paying for??? :rolleyes: Seems they pay the least and get the most from the services provided by taxes.


I agree here. They also seem to waste and/or not appreciate it the most. America is the only place where you will see obese poor people.

[chicagomd]

So if the "poor" pay les tax on a sliding scale as it is today then they should accordingly use less of the services they are paying for??? :rolleyes: Seems they pay the least and get the most from the services provided by taxes.

Correct.

Oddly enough, the poor need the services more than the rich...go figure.

And as far as the "fat poor" are concerned, there are a lot of reasons for that, the least of which is access to good nutrition. McDonalds is much cheaper than fresh fruit.

[miklorsmith]

. . .If you make minimum wage you shouldn't have a family. Period. If people in this country were responsible then this wouldn't even be an issue. They would be smart enough to know what they could or couldn't afford..

At what socioeconomic level do you think humans should be allowed to have children? I assume you love your kids? Yet you would deprive others this freedom and one of life's greatest joys? Would you be in charge of deciding who gets a "birth license"? Would allowed reproduction numbers depend on annual income? If you lost a job, does the card get suspended?

Social engineering and severe right-wingism might seem like a good idea until you take it down to the level of an individual. Thank goodness we haven't lowered ourselves to strip fellow citizens of life-options we enjoy.

I agree the poor have too many children, but there's a good reason we haven't taken China's lead.

[furrycute]

If the U.S.'s population ever reach China's size, to control population growth, I"m sure these same "conservatives" would be at the forfront champaining the virtues of the American one child system.

[MacManNM]

At what socioeconomic level do you think humans should be allowed to have children? I assume you love your kids? Yet you would deprive others this freedom and one of life's greatest joys? Would you be in charge of deciding who gets a "birth license"? Would allowed reproduction numbers depend on annual income? If you lost a job, does the card get suspended?

Social engineering and severe right-wingism might seem like a good idea until you take it down to the level of an individual. Thank goodness we haven't lowered ourselves to strip fellow citizens of life-options we enjoy.

I agree the poor have too many children, but there's a good reason we haven't taken China's lead.

I never said you need a license for it. There you go twisting what I said to make me sound like the bad guy. Your side always does this. You and all of the others like you are missing the point. The rest of us responsible people CHOOSE when is the right time to have children and plan accordingly. If we can’t afford it we don’t do it. If you quit throwing money at the problems, people will wise up and evolve on their own. We are in a devolution spiral, and by throwing money hand over fist at the poor it is perpetuating. But you ignore any of the points made in all of the posts. Heaven forbid you apply some logic to the big picture and try to understand how you people got us here in the first place.

[MacManNM]

If the U.S.'s population ever reach China's size, to control population growth, I"m sure these same "conservatives" would be at the forfront champaining the virtues of the American one child system.

How can you even compare the US to China? 85% of their population is in the true poverty level.

[miklorsmith]

Strong retoric. Casting individuals (me) as "you people" shows how little you listen or care to think. You are an idealogue in the dictionary definition.

At least you're not an influential politician.

[annunaki]

Again a twisting of words and ignoring the topic at hand.

I am assuming by "you people" he meant liberals.

[MacManNM]

Strong retoric. Casting individuals (me) as "you people" shows how little you listen or care to think. You are an idealogue in the dictionary definition.

At least you're not an influential politician.


Again you make no response to any of my points. You can't. You don't have a leg to stand on. If you did we may be able to have some intelligent dialogue. None of you have stated a solution of your own; all you do is tear down anything the opposition says. All you can respond with are things like "I am casting rhetoric" or twisting my words and trying to justify your viewpoint.

[miklorsmith]

I work for a development engineering company. I hold a lot of the same values "you people" do. To cast me as a straightahead liberal shows ignorance, if that was the intent.

I will not participate further. Partly my fault, it has degenerated beyond anything helpful. I still think such discussions should be allowed here.

[sts9fan]

Socialism is not progession but rather regression. It takes away the responsibility of the people. This is democracy. I have the power to vote people or myself into office who will sepend my tax dollars the way I would.


You do know that socialism and democracy can coexist right? You can have a socialist democracy ie canada and most of Europe. I am not saying that those are better but you saying "This is a democracy not socalism!!" is not a very good argument.

[MacManNM]

I am not saying that those are better but you saying "This is a democracy not socalism!!" is not a very good argument.


I'm still waiting for you to make one.

[Clint DeBoer]

This was eye-opening when I read it:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg1713.cfm

Sometimes Americans can forget how the rest of the world defines "poor". This, in essence is why, oftentimes, conservatives are seen as being 'mean' when they insist on tougher programs for those who are in the lower classes or even out of work. Throwing money doesn't equal a well thought-out plan.

But I will be the first to admit that both sides of the political party spectrum have serious issues.

And no matter what anyone says - if you think money can solve all the country's (or world's) issues all you have to do is go back and look at the difference in the national budget today as compared to 1920. By that logic, we should have spent our way into utopia a long time ago.

[MacManNM]

I work for a development engineering company. I hold a lot of the same values "you people" do. To cast me as a straightahead liberal shows ignorance, if that was the intent.

I will not participate further. Partly my fault, it has degenerated beyond anything helpful. I still think such discussions should be allowed here.


So what's your point? You whine about being seen as a straight ahead liberal, and then you leave the discussion. Your views on the matter are most assuredly left biased. Are you ashamed of that? Rest assured, if you were to bring up any even remotely logical point, I would be more than willing to listen. But, you haven't, so goodbye.

[MacManNM]

This was eye-opening when I read it:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg1713.cfm

Sometimes Americans can forget how the rest of the world defines "poor". This, in essence is why, oftentimes, conservatives are seen as being 'mean' when they insist on tougher programs for those who are in the lower classes or even out of work. Throwing money doesn't equal a well thought-out plan.

But I will be the first to admit that both sides of the political party spectrum have serious issues.

And no matter what anyone says - if you think money can solve all the country's (or world's) issues all you have to do is go back and look at the difference in the national budget today as compared to 1920. By that logic, we should have spent our way into utopia a long time ago.

Yes Clint, I have tried to make this exact point several times. Poor people in America can somehow afford TV's, VCR's, cable, and cell phones. How poor are these people?

[majorloser]

In order of priority for discussion...
it would be Titties - Audio - Beer

nerds! who said we should limit discussion to Audio and Beer?

AMEN TO THAT BROTHER :D

[furrycute]

I know this is thread crapping, but has anyone taken a look at my blender thread? Since this thread has had so many digressions, I don't think one more is going to hurt it.:D

I desperately need an answer to my question: when you make smoothies with frozen strawberries, do you thaw the frozen strawberries first, or do you just throw the frozen strawberries right into the blender? My Vitamix seems to have a hard time chopping up the frozen strawberries, I have add some liquid and push around the strawberries before it'll mix.

[majorloser]

Frozen works just fine. A little rum also helps "lubricate" the cutting blades :D

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

I'm a "middle of the road" kinda guy politically.

*I think people should have guns. I think they should also use them to pistol-whip "conservative" christians on our own property.
*If socialism can be defined as "requires restaurants to be inspected by the health Department", then I guess I'm a socialist.
*Stop giving the poor/disabled/eldery Medicare & medicaid. Let them starve!
-OR-
*Give everybody the same health coverage!
*If you want any religious holiday off, you must demonstrate total commitment to said religion the rest of the year...
[example: Pagans don't get Christmas or Easter off, Christians who do anything but pray on Sunday have to work 9-to-5 the next sunday]
*A series of computers with touch-screens shall be placed in every county. Every month everyone who wants to "vote" shall use these computers to cast their vote concerning every topic of governmental relevance that month. Elected officials have many fewer job tasks, or their positions are terminated.
*Pick a language and stick to it! I should have to learn Spanish/korean/chinese/french to understand street signs in my own country (I'm lookin at your Chinatown & southern California).
*Abolish the electoral college. Iraq doesn't have to have one.
*Speedlimits: Enforce them or get rid of them.
*explain to me why you need a license to cut hair, but any schmoe can open a tattoo parlour?

[sjdgpt]

that be the question.

The title to this thread clearly stated the purpose of the thread.

Good Title.

Some of the political threads have not been clearly marked.

I voted to ban political threads. Actually my vote is ban threads that are not clearly identified as to their content, or parts of threads the digress into subjects other than the title.

[mulester7]

.....I've got a message for all you guys who proudly proclaim being of the republican persuasion while holding the elephant banners high spreading the republican platform reasonings far-and-wide as to why tax dollars should not leave Washington, D.C., looking upon minorities as those to be hated, and earn less than 200K annually......

.....george loves ya' and laughs at ya'.....

[mulester7]

.....I say there's simply not enough rungs on the ladder-of-success for everyone to be able to climb....I thank God most persons considered poor, DO, have at least a scant amount of recreational and communication amenities, such as a TV or CD player or cheap Cricket cell-phone, to help them deal with what would surely be probable depression and a sense of giving up derived from what appears to be their assigned lot in life....I stop and look at all the material possessions I have been blessed with, in abundance, simply by doors of opportunity opening through a measure of God's Grace when I didn't really do a thing for the doors to open, and I feel a sense of accountability on my part....I don't have to look very far to observe many precious little children being raised by parents who have a rich history of having doors of opportunity slammed and locked in their faces....by the time the children enter adulthood, such unyieldingly locked doors in their lives, are likely expected through conditioning....to hear someone who appears to be even marginally successful proclaim they are self-made, and did it ALL by themselves, causes me to feel genuine pity....again, there's simply not enough rungs on the ladder-of-success for everyone to be able to climb....a normal ecomomy, and reality, appears throughout history to dictate such, and I suspect there will always be the haves, and the have-nots......

[CaliHwyPatrol]

.....I say there's simply not enough rungs on the ladder-of-success for everyone to be able to climb....I thank God most persons considered poor, DO, have at least a scant amount of recreational and communication amenities, such as a TV or CD player or cheap Cricket cell-phone, to help them deal with what would surely be probable depression and a sense of giving up derived from what appears to be their assigned lot in life....I stop and look at all the material possessions I have been blessed with, in abundance, simply by doors of opportunity opening through a measure of God's Grace when I didn't really do a thing for the doors to open, and I feel a sense of accountability on my part....I don't have to look very far to observe many precious little children being raised by parents who have a rich history of having doors of opportunity slammed and locked in their faces....by the time the children enter adulthood, such unyieldingly locked doors in their lives, are likely expected through conditioning....to hear someone who appears to be even marginally successful proclaim they are self-made, and did it ALL by themselves, causes me to feel genuine pity....again, there's simply not enough rungs on the ladder-of-success for everyone to be able to climb....a normal ecomomy, and reality, appears throughout history to dictate such, and I suspect there will always be the haves, and the have-nots......

In the words of George Carlin, "There are a few winners, and a whole lotta losers..."

~Chuck

[racquetman]

that be the question.

The title to this thread clearly stated the purpose of the thread.

Good Title.

Some of the political threads have not been clearly marked.

I voted to ban political threads. Actually my vote is ban threads that are not clearly identified as to their content, or parts of threads the digress into subjects other than the title.

The title of the thread wasn't that clear - it was quite cryptic actually. Here's the real title:

I have a God complex and I think I have the power to tell everyone else what they can talk about. Since I don't like political threads, neither should you, so vote yes so I don't have to be annoyed by them anymore.

You need a secret decoded pin to decipher this, so I thought I'd do it for you.

[sts9fan]

The title of the thread wasn't that clear - it was quite cryptic actually. Here's the real title:

I have a God complex and I think I have the power to tell everyone else what they can talk about. Since I don't like political threads, neither should you, so vote yes so I don't have to be annoyed by them anymore.


That made me laugh thanks.

Mulester your a good man I like you!

Ok and now for that stuff from The Heritage Foundation. How do you ever expect to get a point across by using material from one of the most notoriously partisan "foundation" in this country? They have a well stated agenda. These are a bunch of Tom Delay's buddies who are just as morally corrupt as he is.

Question for Clint: Do you think because the poor in America have it so good it would be ok to kick'em down a notch?

Thats what that article is saying right? F those guys lets keep more of our money and all they will lose is the dvd player.
So the article states that out of 35 million poor it says 13% or 4.5 million people have experienced hunger. Do you think that would raise if social prgrams like foodstamps and wic are done away with?
Also the space argument is a moot point because it is not apples to apples. We have a lot more space here then in other countries so that argument is really irrelevent.
My main point is(you say I never have one) do you really want to make the american poor to become really poor in you book? Do you want to make America more like the rest of the world or do you think we are better because we take care of our people? Mulester is right there just isn't enough rungs on the latter sometimes.

[Clint DeBoer]

Wow. Ad hom attacks, presumption AND misrepresentation all in one post! Keep going, you're on a roll!

[sts9fan]

Ok my bad what do you think is the intended conclusion of that Heritage article? That they don't need the help? That its ok to stay the same? That they need more help?

[annunaki]

For the record, I am an Independent with no party affiliations. I want what is best for America and it's CITIZENS. Let's face it, many of the social programs in this country are failing because people do not want to get off of them. There is no incentive. The program's' intentions were to give aid for a awhile until you get on, or back on your feet, NOT to be a way of life. The intention is good the execution is horrible.

The less government control we have the better of we all will be. People need to start taking initiative and responsibility again. That is not to say that it would be easy or that a person or two wouldn't be offended. The less government control the less we pay in taxes as well. The government should go back to what it was originally intended to do, Protect the country, Set a foundation of laws and rights and Watch our borders, That's it. The people take care of themselves and make the laws (by voting in the lawmakers they choose). If you're lazy and do not take care of yourself or vote then it is your own fault.

[masak_aer]

I believe in Karma, what you take from others will be taken away from you somehow. What is up will be down some time. What you did to people will be done to you as well. What we need here is BALANCE. There's no absolute correctness from either Sts9Fan and MacManNM arguments. Each has valid point of views but if any of you push your views to the extreme, people will react against you.

I have been following this thread for my afternoon pass time and saddened by the knowledge that we've all been fed by political nonsense from the media (that includes the link from Clint and no, I'm not attacking you on anything). Who knows what is really true or false if you got it off the internet, magazine or even textbooks? Who can guarantee that the writers of the articles have no political agenda? I, myself, read these stuff but only for my own knowledge and always try to compare to others that say a completely different thing. I only try to get a balanced information.

These threads have been swayed away by again another politics talks. I don't mind politics as long as you don't start calling names. What is the point of telling people stupid, ignorant or whatever? You are insulting a person's intelligence and self-esteem over nonsense. Even if you make your point across, do you really think you're gonna change to political view of this country? NO.

All we want is welfare for our family and for our country. We are steered by the government which sometimes should be ticketed for reckless driving (see Clinton, he got his president's license revoked). We do what we gotta do, for me, first: my immediate family, second: my fellow countrymen. I won't beg for money from the government but if they want to give me some i woulnd't mind since i also pay taxes. I have paid my dues to the country and whatever they decide to do, let it be their responsibilities. We can argue to death here but still you have to pay taxes.

At last, I am sitting on my couch at the end of the day, sipping my beer and watching Ice Age :o again while enjoying my speakers blasting next to my ears.


PS: I have done my tax return this year and Hurray, I got a refund!! (my own money actually, I just give it to the government to keep it for me for a year:D)

[tbewick]

'Thats what that article is saying right? F those guys lets keep more of our money and all they will lose is the dvd player.
So the article states that out of 35 million poor it says 13% or 4.5 million people have experienced hunger. Do you think that would raise if social prgrams like foodstamps and wic are done away with?
Also the space argument is a moot point because it is not apples to apples. We have a lot more space here then in other countries so that argument is really irrelevent.
My main point is(you say I never have one) do you really want to make the american poor to become really poor in you book? Do you want to make America more like the rest of the world or do you think we are better because we take care of our people? Mulester is right there just isn't enough rungs on the latter sometimes.' - sts9fan

I think it's sometimes easy to forget that since the dawn of mankind, virtually everyone who ever lived and died was dirt poor. One of the main reasons we live well in the Western world is because of science. It is not because we have an unfair share of the world's resources or that we are uncaring of the poor. In his time in office, George Bush has increased considerably the amount of aid given to poorer countries.

'The less government control we have the better of we all will be. People need to start taking initiative and responsibility again. That is not to say that it would be easy or that a person or two wouldn't be offended. The less government control the less we pay in taxes as well. The government should go back to what it was originally intended to do, Protect the country, Set a foundation of laws and rights and Watch our borders, That's it. The people take care of themselves and make the laws (by voting in the lawmakers they choose). If you're lazy and do not take care of yourself or vote then it is your own fault.' - annunaki

This sounds similar to the policies adopted by the Republicans in the 1920's.

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

The "everyone for themselves" ideal is a larger fantasy than the "free money for everyone" crowd. We'll start with the "#1 priority is me & my family" group. Obviously these people have never seen a: retirement home, prison, mental hospital, orphanage, daycare center, nursing home, etc etc etc.

The government created these facilities, not to watse our money, but history clearly shows that people will abandon their precious precious family for dead before they inconvenience themselves with supporting anyone else. Since society has deemed this is tantamount to murder, we have these institutions because people DO NOT/ WILL NOT put their family first, and everybody is somebodies family. (Sure you might live with grandma and your middle aged children, and their children in one 2 bedroom apartment, but you are not 99.99999% of America).

Is "welfare" for the able bodied flawed? Of course it is. A simple spending cap (lets say: 6 months of benefits for every 5 years of work) would appease most people, but good luck convincing the government workers: Every 5 people on a lifetime of welfare means another 3 people get jobs handing out checks and telling the first 5 not to have more babies. Since a huge chunk of the workforce (how many tens of thousands "work for welfare"?) are not going to simply walk away from their government benefits, pensions, and paychecks YOU are going to have to do something about it (what? I dunno..... taking dwn the system has hstorically been very bloody and involved entire armies).

On top of that we have Joe Schmoe who recieved a head injury in the Army and can't work because he flies into homicidal rages or has a Gran Mal seizure daily, or maybe Leopold Schwartz who was born deformed because of the governments mandated Thalidomide "vaccinations". This isn't even counting every Jack & Jill who simply lived past their retirement savings (and who really thought a nursing home would cost $6000/month when they started saving in 1956?).

The "welfare problem" extends well beyond a few lazy sacks of crap, but nobody wants to admit that part of it. And they certainly don't want to shelter these people in their houses just to get them off the assistance.

[Clint DeBoer]

You really start to realize how important family is when you consider these matters. We truly should take care of our own.

My main thought is that sometimes it's easier to throw money at a problem than evaluate whether you are helping or hurting. We need to help the truly disabled. The rest will benefit more from being taught how to fish, not just by being given fish to eat. I think our politicians are lazy - and we as Americans allow them to be because we equate more money with caring.

Money can be a curse or a prison to those who don't understand how to use it for good.

[annunaki]

'Thats what that article is saying right? F those guys lets keep more of our money and all they will lose is the dvd player.
So the article states that out of 35 million poor it says 13% or 4.5 million people have experienced hunger. Do you think that would raise if social prgrams like food stamps and wic are done away with?
Also the space argument is a moot point because it is not apples to apples. We have a lot more space here then in other countries so that argument is really irrelevant.
My main point is(you say I never have one) do you really want to make the American poor to become really poor in you book? Do you want to make America more like the rest of the world or do you think we are better because we take care of our people? Mulester is right there just isn't enough rungs on the latter sometimes.' - sts9fan

I think it's sometimes easy to forget that since the dawn of mankind, virtually everyone who ever lived and died was dirt poor. One of the main reasons we live well in the Western world is because of science. It is not because we have an unfair share of the world's resources or that we are uncaring of the poor. In his time in office, George Bush has increased considerably the amount of aid given to poorer countries.

'The less government control we have the better of we all will be. People need to start taking initiative and responsibility again. That is not to say that it would be easy or that a person or two wouldn't be offended. The less government control the less we pay in taxes as well. The government should go back to what it was originally intended to do, Protect the country, Set a foundation of laws and rights and Watch our borders, That's it. The people take care of themselves and make the laws (by voting in the lawmakers they choose). If you're lazy and do not take care of yourself or vote then it is your own fault.' - annunaki

This sounds similar to the policies adopted by the Republicans in the 1920's.


It is too bad that the country as a whole has stepped away from that philosophy.

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

And we should all be happy we can even have political discussions. If this were Audioholics.Cn and not Audioholics.com the government would have shut the whole site down page page 2 and Gene & Clint would be getting genitally electrocuted right now for allowing the rest of us to complain about the government on their forum.

But I must wonder, are internet forums protected under freedom of Speech or freedom of Assembly?

[majorloser]

And we should all be happy we can even have political discussions. If this were Audioholics.Cn and not Audioholics.com the government would have shut the whole site down page page 2 and Gene & Clint would be getting genitally electrocuted right now for allowing the rest of us to complain about the government on their forum.

But I must wonder, are internet forums protected under freedom of Speech or freedom of Assembly?

Actually, since I'm typing this right now on a government computer, it will fall under the FOIA. They will come and subpoena the whole server network............Uh, I got to go...........I think their monitoring...........as I quickly open up a Word document to make it look like I'm working............

[sts9fan]

It is too bad that the country as a whole has stepped away from that philosophy.



hahahahahahahahah

Do do know that republicans at that time were the liberals right? The Democrats were the ones trying to "preseve the constitution".

[Buckeyefan 1]

You really start to realize how important family is when you consider these matters. We truly should take care of our own.

My main thought is that sometimes it's easier to throw money at a problem than evaluate whether you are helping or hurting. We need to help the truly disabled. The rest will benefit more from being taught how to fish, not just by being given fish to eat. I think our politicians are lazy - and we as Americans allow them to be because we equate more money with caring.

Money can be a curse or a prison to those who don't understand how to use it for good.

And on another thought, political action committees are some of the hardest working Americans. We should find a way to transpose pac employees with politicians.

[MacManNM]

Actually, since I'm typing this right now on a government computer, it will fall under the FOIA. They will come and subpoena the whole server network............Uh, I got to go...........I think their monitoring...........as I quickly open up a Word document to make it look like I'm working............


Are you a Patrick?

[majorloser]

Are you a Patrick?

Right down the street. I home now. I live about 1/2 mile from Patrick.

EDIT: Now I can get back to what the internet was meant for! :)

EDIT Part2: A C-5 just flew overhead.

[Buckeye_Nut]

I really think political threads should be banned. I don't think any one is going to be swayed either way so lets just talk audio and beer
Considering the tone of the recent Oscar nominations & winners, it's impossible to even talk 'movies' without injecting politics into the discussion.

GoBucks

[agarwalro]

I voted "HELL YEAH".

While you are at it, ban everyone how has ever posted a negative remark about Axiom and SVS and Yamaha HTR-5890 because I think their opinion is worthless since they have no clue about anything. Oh yeah, and lets not forget all those that said Bose sucks and speaker wire is not directional because they need to go see a shrink. Last but not the least, I want all threads about the xBox 360 banned since I think Microsoft sucks. Oh and...

While I am here can you tell me why my subwoofer has stopped woofing? I mean, it just stopped and I have no clue what to do.













:D :D :D :D :D
As long as they are in the Steam Vent, I dont care.

[Pyrrho]

The avowed purpose of "The Steam Vent" is:

Talk just about anything you'd like here. Or, if you've got a beef about a manufacturer, or you just want to vent some audio steam... come on in. This is the only place you won't get in trouble for flame wars - all other places are off limits. Note: Any comments, criticisms or name calling of Audioholics should be done via PM or directed to circularfile@audioholics.com. Suggestions can be made in the 'Site Suggestions and Feedback' forum.

So, if you have a beef with Audioholics for allowing a section for anything that anybody wants to talk about, you should follow the directions above. And, as has been stated by others, if you are not interested in a thread, who is forcing you to read it? If you only want to read on topic threads about audio, I strongly suggest you stay out of the Steam Vent, the purpose of which is to be off topic. Also, this thread is about politics: It is about free speech. Perhaps someone should start a poll about whether or not hypocrisy should be banned from this site....

[Matt34]

The avowed purpose of "The Steam Vent" is:



So, if you have a beef with Audioholics for allowing a section for anything that anybody wants to talk about, you should follow the directions above. And, as has been stated by others, if you are not interested in a thread, who is forcing you to read it? If you only want to read on topic threads about audio, I strongly suggest you stay out of the Steam Vent, the purpose of which is to be off topic. Also, this thread is about politics: It is about free speech. Perhaps someone should start a poll about whether or not hypocrisy should be banned from this site....

This site isn't a democracy either, so free speech doesn't apply.

[Pyrrho]

This site isn't a democracy either, so free speech doesn't apply.

A democracy need not allow free speech, nor does any other form of government necessarily exclude free speech. Indeed, in a pure democracy, the people could vote to suppress any speech they wished, and such wishes would then become law.

Your comment is really a better criticism of this thread than of my post. As this site is not run by those who merely post here, what is the point of a poll suggesting a ban? Even if people did vote that way (which, the last time I looked at it the majority were voting the other way), those running this site need not pay any attention to it. Frankly, I suspect that they will pay little attention to this poll regardless of the results.

The way free speech applies to this site is this: Broadly speaking, those who run it allow free speech in the Steam Vent. Those who don't like this fact are welcome to visit other places with greater restrictions, if they wish.

And, as I suggested previously, because this thread is about free speech, it is itself a political thread, and therefore should be banned according to those who would ban political threads at this site.

[Matt34]

A democracy need not allow free speech, nor does any other form of government necessarily exclude free speech. Indeed, in a pure democracy, the people could vote to suppress any speech they wished, and such wishes would then become law.

Your comment is really a better criticism of this thread than of my post. As this site is not run by those who merely post here, what is the point of a poll suggesting a ban? Even if people did vote that way (which, the last time I looked at it the majority were voting the other way), those running this site need not pay any attention to it. Frankly, I suspect that they will pay little attention to this poll regardless of the results.

The way free speech applies to this site is this: Broadly speaking, those who run it allow free speech in the Steam Vent. Those who don't like this fact are welcome to visit other places with greater restrictions, if they wish.

And, as I suggested previously, because this thread is about free speech, it is itself a political thread, and therefore should be banned according to those who would ban political threads at this site.

Um, yeah.

IMO I would prefer politics and religion not be part of forums I frequent, there really isn't any relevance to them in an audio, sports car or computer forum, especially with the anonymity that the internet provides. People tend to express extreme views that they otherwise never would have if not for this type of media.

I don't believe in a God and am sure as hell(don't believe in that either;) ) not putting my faith in a politician.