Reasons to go internet direct.....

[patnshan]

1. Circuit city has crap scattered everywhere and only have the micro JVC, Sony, and Bose speakers in the area with the heading "home audio". I saw exactly 4 sets of polk and infinity speakers in thier bogus home theater area. Nobody there knows what they are doing.

2. Best Buy has all speakers in one room on a shelf that is too high to listen to them at the right level. They are all powered by a budget sony receiver that has been there since 1985. They also highlight bose, and even have them set up wrong (all 5 "speakers within 4 feet of each other:D).

3. Went to one local botique store that sells Phase Tech, Def Tech, and a few other high end brands. I walked in with a tie, dressed nice and nobody even asked to help me.

4. I went to another big box store that sells higher end stuff. They have the same terrible setup as Best Buy. Nobody was there to help either. I would have loved to hear the Klipsch reference line but waited long enough for the dead end crew to stop talking amongst themselves :(.

5. I did have good luck at one PSB dealer and am still considering them.

6. I have e-mailed htd, SVS, Hsu, axiom, and ascend and received multiple, detailed responses in less than a day from all of them. They all offer a 30 day money back guarantee.

Just some humble observations from a guy who was trying to audition speakers at B&M stores but is about to give up:(

Pat

[jaxvon]

Thankfully my local stores have excellent staff. They were willing to commit several hours to my time, even though I didn't buy anything. Perhaps I have good luck. In the end, I still ended up getting my BIC speakers off Ubid and Amazon because I was too poor (and still am) to get something nice from the local stores.

[zumbo]

I couldn't agree more. BB has an edge here.

I have two "high-end" shops here. One is good with great products. The other sucks with good products.

The first one is great, but snooty.

I have been in-and-out of the second one for years. They never seem to have the demo room set-up. What a joke.

I purchased my cd player from the snooty shop many years ago. The rest of my equipment was purchased online. Some gray market(I wouldn't recommend), others were great experiences.

Yawa
OneCall
WildWest

[gellor]

3. Went to one local botique store that sells Phase Tech, Def Tech, and a few other high end brands. I walked in with a tie, dressed nice and nobody even asked to help me.

Well, there's your problem right there. Go into the high-end botique stores in old, faded jeans, a t-shirt, and messed-up hair. You'll have assistance before the door even closes.

[patnshan]

Well, there's your problem right there. Go into the high-end botique stores in old, faded jeans, a t-shirt, and messed-up hair. You'll have assistance before the door even closes.

I resent this! I mess up my hair on purpose, you know that's the in thing:D

Pat

[jmanlp]

I have to agree with patnshan, buying online is the only way I go now. After dealing with my local audio stores, they made me feel like a dumb kid, which I am, but they didn't have to make me feel like that. One even refused to sell me some Paradigm speakers because he said I would not be happy with the way they sounded on my HK AVR-635 and said I need a NAD amp if I was going to enjoy them at all (which of couse he sold also). Any retailers that don't support internet direct retailers I feel sorry for (Klipsch) cause thats the way the market is going and they better not be late to the party.

[zumbo]

I have to agree with patnshan, buying online is the only way I go now. After dealing with my local audio stores, they made me feel like a dumb kid, which I am, but they didn't have to make me feel like that. One even refused to sell me some Paradigm speakers because he said I would not be happy with the way they sounded on my HK AVR-635 and said I need a NAD amp if I was going to enjoy them at all (which of couse he sold also). Any retailers that don't support internet direct retailers I feel sorry for (Klipsch) cause thats the way the market is going and they better not be late to the party.

I have had this happen. I love to pop-in from time-to-time so they can see my face, check stuff out, and walk.

Funny thing. The owners(2) of two places gets to see my face over and over. This has been over at least a ten year period. I think they get the point now.

People need to understand the youth is tomorrows customers. There are a bunch of dumba**es in the world.

[Sheep]

You people are going to put me out of a job! :rolleyes:

SheepStar

[patnshan]

You people are going to put me out of a job! :rolleyes:

SheepStar

Sheep,

I'm pretty sure you have a nice setup that is correctly done and you treat your customers well.

If I knew where the hell Coquitlam was, maybe I'd see yuo some time:D I have been to been to Vancouver an very much enjoyed it;)

Pat

[patnshan]

I have had this happen. I love to pop-in from time-to-time so they can see my face, check stuff out, and walk.

Funny thing. The owner of two places gets to see my face over and over. This has been over at least a ten year period. I think they get the point now.

People need to understand the youth is tomorrows customers. There are a bunch of dumba**es in the world.


I'm not even that young (33). I'm old enough to have a masters degree, two kids, and a well paying career. They still don't treat me well, so I doubt that's even it:confused:

Pat

[Sheep]

Sheep,

I'm pretty sure you have a nice setup that is correctly done and you treat your customers well.

If I knew where the hell Coquitlam was, maybe I'd see yuo some time:D I have been to been to Vancouver an very much enjoyed it;)

Pat

Coquitlam is about 15 minutes outside of Vancouver. Anyone who wants to visit me at work is more then welcome to. I work at the BestBuy neer Coquitlam Center (mall).

SheepStar

[zumbo]

I'm not even that young (33). I'm old enough to have a masters degree, two kids, and a well paying career. They still don't treat me well, so I doubt that's even it:confused:

Pat

Sorry for the misunderstanding. That particular response was to this: The quote was in the post.
I have to agree with patnshan, buying online is the only way I go now. After dealing with my local audio stores, they made me feel like a dumb kid, which I am, but they didn't have to make me feel like that. One even refused to sell me some Paradigm speakers because he said I would not be happy with the way they sounded on my HK AVR-635 and said I need a NAD amp if I was going to enjoy them at all (which of couse he sold also). Any retailers that don't support internet direct retailers I feel sorry for (Klipsch) cause thats the way the market is going and they better not be late to the party.

33-masters-well paying career-2 kids. You have been a very busy person.

[patnshan]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. That particular response was to this: The quote was in the post.


33-masters-well paying career-2 kids. You have been a very busy person.

No misunderstading. I used to think I was mistreated because of being young. Now, I am not so young and still cannot get good service:( That was my only point.
Take care,
Pat

[The Dukester]

Maybe you need to move...or open your own Hi-Fi store! I have had both good and bad experiences in the B & M chain stores. You are correct, though, about them not being laid out as well as the specialty/local stores. As far as the local owned shops, there are some really good ones down this way (Carolinas and Geogia). Once in awhile you will come up on the snooty dealer, but most are knowledgeable, friendly and carry decent to excellent brands. Two stores in particular I deal with have been owned by the same people for 25 or more years and many of the same people still work there that were around when I first started to deal with them. Perhaps I'm the lucky one.:)
I have also had good experience with the internet folks and buy from them as well on occasion. Often times they have the product and quality I want at a better price. However, if the local guys have it at close to the same price, I prefer to keep my money in the local pockets/economy.

[Hi Ho]

I have had similar experiences in the big box stores. There is one local high end shop that is very good with excellent staff that know what they're talking about. However, their prices are more than double what can be found online. I just don't have that kind of money.

[sjdgpt]

Online sales the way of the future?

Hmmmm. The last time I checked, online sales accounted for about 4% of the USA retail sales. One generous forecast projected 10% of retail sales by 2010.

True there are a lot of pizza's being sold in those retail sales figures, but B&M are still king.

For speciality products, such as audio equipment, online sales are most likely a larger % than the % for all retail sales.

But are online sales of audio equipment dominate? I don't think so. Remember BB CC also conduct mail order and online sales. When BB CC starts closing stores then we can say online sales are dominate, but BB CC are opening more stores. If you were responsible for the company's $, would you open more stores if your sales were shifting to online & mail order? Think about it !



Yes customer service is a problem...

As a sales dude, I must decide whether a customer is going to generate a positive return to my investment. That sounds terrible, but it is the truth. And it happens in every field of endeavor. Just watch the hostess at Friday's... she will promptly seat you at the best table, being served by her friends, if she believes you will be a better tipper. I wonder if she gets a kick back, or just undying graditude of her friends?

For audio, if we accept the premise that audio online sales are larger % than online sale % for all retail products, the sales dudes have an even bigger responsibility for selecting profitable customers. (or selecting profitable suckers to sell the Bose set up and 50" Plasma TV for the 100 square foot viewing room)

By the way, the hostess at Friday's must absolutely hate me. I always get the sucky table by the kitchen door.

[Hi Ho]

The average joe goes into Circuit City and buys a system with little or no knowledge and usually misguided advice from a salesperson.

A person like me might go and demo a product, then purchase it online for much less money. Brick and mortor stores simply cannot compete price-wise.

[mike c]

Coquitlam is about 15 minutes outside of Vancouver. Anyone who wants to visit me at work is more then welcome to. I work at the BestBuy neer Coquitlam Center (mall).

SheepStar

so ... we go into the store looking for someone named "sheep"? :p

[Sheep]

so ... we go into the store looking for someone named "sheep"? :p

Yep. I have already given my name in another thread. Now, go find it! :)

SheepStar

[Leprkon]

the sad part of all of this is that Circuit City and Best Buy came into being by using high-volume pricing, displays that allowed you to view a number of options in a sound-friendly environment, and hiring mostly-knowledgeable (ie "geek") kids who treated their hobby and knowledge as something to share with the customer.

They used these strategies to drive Silo and Ward's right off the map and places like Dillard's, Foley's, and JC Penney out of the electronics market.

About seven or eight years ago, they had some kind of paradigm shift in management, presumably based on the loss of competition or the raging ignorance of the everyday customer, or perhaps the market penetration of Bose. Since then, everything has been based on warranties and accessories.

The actual sale of an item that the customer will really value is not the goal anymore. As far as the everyday worker, it appears any knowledge of the product is actually discouraged (we will exclude the Sheep, since he is obviously well-informed but will doubtlessly be fired the minute his managers discover this).

The only true advantage a B&M store has is that you can see the toy. In these days of instant gratification, they are banking on even the more well-informed customers itching to get the toy they see than in finding the best price. They then fail to take capitalize on the advantage by making that toy sound and appear so desirable that you have to have it NOW. Instead, they have made it incredibly easy, and actually preferable, to walk away and go shop on the net.

Most, if not all, of their items can't be touched until about 5 % of MSRP. I was looking just this weekend at one of their B-stock items that was still about 10 % higher than I could have bought a brand new item from a reliable internet shop. They charge you more, provide less service, and swamp you with post-purchase items and then wonder why the internet is a much more attractive option for buyers.

C/C & BB, like so many previous companies, have walked away from their bread and butter in search of more profits. They are dinosaurs just waiting for the comet to hit.

[sy527x]

Yeah, I've had the same experience with these stores also. I might be tempted to buy an HDTV from Circuit City or Best Buy, but not much else. Their speakers selection is poor and their willingness to help is worse. Even the Magnolia section of Best Buy, I was looking at TVs and speakers in there for 20 minutes and no one came by to ask if I needed help. I got the same thing from Tweeter, the supposed "high-end electronics store where their employees don't work on commission", at least I don't think they do. I suppose if none of these places want my money, I'm just as happy to go somewhere that does.

I must say I have had at least 2 very enjoyable times at the high-end boutique stores, their employees were very knowledgeable. The 2 people that helped me were probably the owners of the stores, and they seemed genuinely interested in teaching me what to listen for in speakers and that ultimately they can't make the choice for me.

I may be 25 with a good job, but I guess the chain stores look at me thinking I'm some punk kid with no money. Oh well...

[Taifun]

Pat,

Are you in the NW? Washington more specifically?

I had a similar experience with Magnolia and Definitive Audio (both in Bellevue). They wouldn't even acknowledge my presence. I went to the Lynwood Magnolia and got a really nice sales person that took the time to help my wife and I. I walked out the door with my Pioneer Elite gear.

My search is now on for a Klipsch dealer in this area so I can listen to the new line before taking the jump and auditioning Axiom M60ti's in home. The internet sure does seem to be friendly compared to being ignored :D

[shokhead]

I'm pretty sure i've always been given in a B&M store the wrong answer to a HT question or wrong information. I was told over the weekend that DualDisc is the same as SACD/DVD-A but cheaper and when i brushed that off and asked about DTS Music he said,thats only for movies so there ya go. I wonder how many come out of these stores with incorrect info or are talked into buying a subpar setup?

[JES14]

The best reply I received was at Future Shop a couple years back. I asked the sales guy if they carried any DVD-Audio players, he responded that ALL their DVD players had audio!:eek:
But as for on-line being the future I say no way. I am sure I'm not alone in loving to listen to nice gear at some mid-fi and hi-fi shops. If no-one offers me help I set up my own auditions, they either come running, or leave me alone til I ask for help.
AS for bad setups at BB, CC, F/S and other big box stores, it's unfortnutate but when they sell everything from beef jerky to HDTV's to freezers you are not going to find the most knowledgable staff. But considering their liberal return policies and no shipping costs, just take it home and try it.

[GaryZ06]

Well, there's your problem right there. Go into the high-end botique stores in old, faded jeans, a t-shirt, and messed-up hair. You'll have assistance before the door even closes.
Sounds like me...except jean shorts....Never judge someone by the way they are dressed....if you do you have made a very big mistake.

[patnshan]

Sounds like me...except jean shorts....Never judge someone by the way they are dressed....if you do you have made a very big mistake.


All they have to do is take a look outside at your $60,000 car and know you have the cash! ;)

Pat

[patnshan]

Pat,

Are you in the NW? Washington more specifically?

I had a similar experience with Magnolia and Definitive Audio (both in Bellevue). They wouldn't even acknowledge my presence. I went to the Lynwood Magnolia and got a really nice sales person that took the time to help my wife and I. I walked out the door with my Pioneer Elite gear.

My search is now on for a Klipsch dealer in this area so I can listen to the new line before taking the jump and auditioning Axiom M60ti's in home. The internet sure does seem to be friendly compared to being ignored :D

Nope, I am in the midwest (Wisconsin).

Pat

[Leprkon]

All they have to do is take a look outside at your $60,000 car and know you have the cash! ;)

Pat

this is up for discussion as well.... one of these didn't even get me a blink from the local Ultimate Electronics dweebs..

[highfihoney]

Maybe the canasian best buy are run better than their us counterparts. I just hate those bb and cc and ultimate elect reps. They are so stupid and yet all, I say all of them, think they are smarter than us the average joes shopping for tvs or speakers or anything else. I went one day to one of those stupid stores looking to buy an expensive tv. First noone helped me. Then as I was looking at one of their tvs, one rep passing by threw a line at me that went something like this "you like it? then buy a few of them..." The idiot does he know how much I make? I laughed at his stupidity and walked out. Little did he know I was ready to buy that tv if I remember was retailed at around $4,500...

i know the feeling but in reverse, i get prompt attention no matter what store im in(usually by store security) i even asked a security lard a$$ at my local circut city to go fetch me some assistance,ofcourse he gave me the i dont work here speel of crap but minutes later out popped the manager:)

if you want some assistance start lurking around & people will flock to help you out.

[einsteinjb]

As a sales dude, I must decide whether a customer is going to generate a positive return to my investment. That sounds terrible, but it is the truth. And it happens in every field of endeavor...

For audio, if we accept the premise that audio online sales are larger % than online sale % for all retail products, the sales dudes have an even bigger responsibility for selecting profitable customers. (or selecting profitable suckers to sell the Bose set up and 50" Plasma TV for the 100 square foot viewing room)
Thank you. You just pointed out another excellent reason to shop online. So far, every owner of every ID brand I've spoken with, emailed, bought from, or even heard about, WANTS our business, and they bend over backwards to make us happy and bring us back. They are PASSIONATE about their products; they love what they do, they love being able to share their work with their customers, they take pride in their work, they stand behind their products and back up their sales with great customer service (even before the sale!). A lot of love, passion and pride goes into these products -- you can see it in the details and the quality construction, and you can hear it in the sound they produce. That may sound corny but it's true; you can always tell when someone takes pride in their work and puts the music and the customer over the profits.

On the other hand, you just admitted that you and probably many other B&M dealers aren't there to help the customer; you're there to maximize your profits. Yech. I'm not putting you down personally... Everyone's gotta make a living. But personally... I'd rather fly cross country and over the border to Vancouver and buy a nice fat plasma TV from Sheep than drive a mile to buy from a store with employees that have the attitude you just described.

By the way, the hostess at Friday's must absolutely hate me. I always get the sucky table by the kitchen door.
Maybe she remembers you because you sold her a Bose set up and 50" Plasma TV for her 100 square foot viewing room? :p

In fairness, I've dealt with a few cool B&M stores. Of course they're out there. There's a little place in Cherry Hill NJ for example called HiFi Sales (creative name, huh? lol) that specializes in custom installs so they don't have a ton of stuff on their sales floor, and they're really nice people, particularly a British gentleman named Tony who's very cool. No hard sell, they're very knowledgeable, and they seem to offer about the best prices I've seen in a retail store. Not a lot of selection but it's good stuff.

Still I personally lean HEAVILY towards ID brands since I've had such great experiences so far, and even when I want to buy a retail product I'll try to find a better price online first, and usually succeed. You can quote statistics all you want. It's the way the wind is blowing, like it or not, and for very good reasons.

[swamyg1]

Ok but can you guys explain why companies like Paradigm only sell through local stores... yes, those tweeter shops are passionate about music and equipment, but it would make sense to me that Paradigm would have a U.S. distribution center where they could control the power of their product. Why not sell online to a bigger audience? The obvious reason would be that they don't want to commercialize themselves more than they are... however they made the cinema series to compete with BOSE. Maybe there are even more obvious reasons that you guys could tell me about.

I just wish there were more places where I could go to check out good stuff... and the fact that you can't even order from them online is crazy.

[einsteinjb]

Ok but can you guys explain why companies like Paradigm only sell through local stores... yes, those tweeter shops are passionate about music and equipment, but it would make sense to me that Paradigm would have a U.S. distribution center where they could control the power of their product. Why not sell online to a bigger audience? The obvious reason would be that they don't want to commercialize themselves more than they are... however they made the cinema series to compete with BOSE. Maybe there are even more obvious reasons that you guys could tell me about.

I just wish there were more places where I could go to check out good stuff... and the fact that you can't even order from them online is crazy.
OK, some good questions. Not sure if I understand what you mean though when you say Paradigm only sells through "local stores" and doesn't want to commercialize themselves more than they are. Are you referring to the fact that they only sell through smaller hifi/boutique stores rather than big box/chain stores? If so, well I certainly don't claim to know everything about the industry or business models in general, but I know enough to know that that decision is all about target market. Except for their lowest lines like the Cinema series, Paradigm targets a midfi to lower hifi demographic, and they know those people do NOT shop for speakers at BB or CC. B&W is the same way (although of course their 800 series, their flagship products, targets a serious high end market, in addition to their several less expensive lines). No matter how gorgeous or great sounding a Paradigm Signature series mid-tower speaker is, you can't put it in Circuit City with a $2300 price tag on it. Paradigm, B&W and others maintain their boutique, exclusive, hifi image by staying out of the box stores. They're not trying to maximize their profits with low margin high volume sales; they do it via lower volume, high profit margin boutique sales, and it works for them.

The decision for a company to sell online or not is a more difficult one I think. When you allow online sales, you immediately pi$$ off your B&M dealers and you put their sales in jeopardy if you allow lower prices online than they can give in the stores. You simply can not be both an Internet Direct and a B&M model at the same time. Quite a few companies do sell both on-and offline, but generally their online prices are higher than retail and they're mainly just there for the convenience of those who can not get to a B&M retailer to buy.

Plus it takes a long time and a lot of expense to actually set up a national or international distribution network for any given company. Once you've gone that route and committed resources to creating that distribution network, now you've formed relationships and signed contracts with distributers and retailers all over the world and you can't just flip the switch and nix all that and go to an ID model just because it seems like a good idea. I imagine it would be much easier to go the other way, from ID to retail, once you've achieved some success and brand recognition in the industry, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Interestingly, SVS seems to be creating a balance right now between the two models. They're ID, but they're also busy establishing a network of international distributors to sell their products outside the US. Clever of them, since international shipping issues for huge, delicate products like theirs are a real problem.

About the Paradigm Cinema series, it would be great if they could get those distributed in the big box stores. I auditioned them once and wasn't a fan, but they just weren't what I was looking for. There's no doubt they'd MURDER Bose all over the place if they sold side by side at their current prices! They're so much better and so much cheaper, I think customers would actually be confused. They'd be standing there going hang on, I don't get it! Bose is The Best, right? But umm... Then why does this $600 little nice looking Paradigm system here (who I never heard of) sound so much better than this awesome $2300 Bose system?!? :eek: hehe. I think they could do that and still maintain their boutique image; seems to work for Klipsch and JBL, having a cheap line at BB and their well regarded better lines in the hifi (Klipsch) or pro audio (JBL) stores, right?

[shokhead]

Anytime i've seen B&W sold somewhere,its almost the only brand that place sells,maybe 1 or 2 other brands but mostly B&W will be there main brand.

[einsteinjb]

Anytime i've seen B&W sold somewhere,its almost the only brand that place sells,maybe 1 or 2 other brands but mostly B&W will be there main brand.
Yeah I don't think that's uncommon. That place HiFi Sales I mentioned pretty much sells B&W and Paradigm. Bob & Ron's World Wide Stereo right near me carries B&W, Klipsch, Dynaudio, and Totem and I think that's about it. I could be wrong but I suspect these boutique shops aren't trying to be everything to everyone. I think they're trying to cater to the folks who come in with a lotta money saying "I want the best!" and they don't want a lot of choices, they just want THE BEST. So they use their limited floor space to show just a few brands they feel will satifsy their market.

Of course both Paradigm and B&W (and other brands of course) have such a wide range of product lines at every price point from a couple hundred $/pair through multi-thousands, they probably don't need to carry a lot of different brands if they carry a couple like that.