Healthcare Overcharge! [Archive] - Audioholics Home Theater Forums

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zumbo

03-09-2004, 06:33 PM

Canadians are ticked about electronics. I am ticked about healthcare cost. We pay way more for healthcare & medication!

Lets try to keep politics out of this! <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'>

I see the doctor a great deal more than I update my audio!

03-10-2004, 05:30 PM

Yes we do even though I am an MD and personally benefit greatly from all these dollars. The pentagon and their $600 hammer has nothing on medicine. Much has to do with malpractice and a ridiculous amount of defensive medicine, unrealistic patient expectations, a get the answer now without waiting attitude by doctors and patients and an appalling amount spent on people in their last weeks of life.As boomers age it will only get worse. However as the old joke goes: if we adopt a Canadian style health care system where will all the (rich) Canadians get their healthcare? People waiting weeks for MRIs and hip replacements won't go over big here. Oh well, it keeps me in good audio gear!

pam

03-10-2004, 08:27 PM

Hi

This is a political choice. If you are ready to:
- pay 2000$ to 5000$ more of income tax;
- have a law to reduce the amount of liability paid to doctors;
- have an investment in training more doctors at a lower cost (increase subsidies to universities for training doctors);
you can have health insurance for everyone free.

About medication costs, the provincial government in Canada has more bargaining power with Drug companies.

This is all political. When Americans will want medicare for everyone they will have it.

BTW, you pay 5% of your gross domestic product in medicare, and the second most expensive country is paying less than 3%. You pay more and serve less people. It is only a matter of choice.

jeffsg4mac

03-10-2004, 09:09 PM

I don't think we pay too much for healthcare just too much for most drugs. My wife is an LPN soon to be an RN, she works and studies her butt off and she deserves every penny she makes. You want free healthcare then move to Canada and get in line. You want the best care in the world then pay for it.

03-10-2004, 09:25 PM

My favorite political about this is "we will not have health care rationing in this country!" So just what does the working poor don't get none mean?
It goes well beyond drugs. There are more MRIs at about 1-3 million dollars a pop in any US city than in any other country on earth. People expect a scan for every back ache or headache. The cost where I live is $880 a study. All this so once in a blue moon you will find an unexpected and untreatable brain tumor? It will put my daughter through college but even I with a vested interest in it am appalled. Put this money into prevention and you get much more back.
I admit I went into this because I like the toys which is why I'm an audio enthusiast too but this is no way to improve the nations health.

zumbo

03-11-2004, 01:59 PM

Jeff. I think you missed the point of this thread! <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

jeffsg4mac

03-11-2004, 02:22 PM

I'm sorry, What was the point? <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/down.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':down:'>

zumbo

03-11-2004, 02:32 PM

Canadians were complaining about their cost for electronics. So, due to the fact they pay a great deal less for healthcare & medication, I was making the point that Americans pay much more for this. Then, I was asking to keep politics out of this. That seems to be what both threads are about. I am sure many other countries have different cost in different areas, so this could go on for days! <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

JAB

03-12-2004, 01:27 AM

Dan is right about health care line-ups in Canada. There is waiting lists for every type of proceedure, and only the critically ill or life threatening accidents get immediate attention. My other half has had two operations ( not life threatening ) in the last two years, and really didn't have to wait that long for the operations. Once into the hospital, the care and service was excellent. I am sure a private medical bill would have been in the tens of thousands, but medicare paid the shot. Coverage costs us around $900 a year.

In Canada, private medicine is supposed to be illegal, but a new building in my community has opened with private MRI's and three operating theatres. The cost, which is bourne by the patient is high, but the service is immediate. The provincial government watchdog has barked a little, but so far no biting. If you got the bucks-you get the luck!

As per Dan and his frank statements - good on you!! I have been self employed nearly all my working life and also enjoy investing my money in A/V and cars. No drugs - No smoking - No drinking = hobby bucks!

Al

pam

03-12-2004, 01:34 AM

Hi Zumbo

The cost of health care is a political choice. US is the most expensive systems (you pay more than anywhere, most of the time twice so you have the money) but 30% of your population is not covered (unlike all other G7). This is a political choice that has been done by americains.

With your actual health cost and the increasing weight of americains will end up having most of the population not covered. You will have to do some tough decision in this matter. People are getting older also. We also have our share of problems.

The cost of electronics was another subject in another subject in the steam vent. I am not only complaining, I am starting to do the promotion of buying outside of Canada (in US). I want Canadian distributors to be more competitive or to die.

zumbo

03-12-2004, 10:36 AM

Pam, I see your point. I have heard of bus-loads of Americans making a trip to Canada to save on Prescription drugs. I was not really fussing, I was trying to be funny and stir up a little controversy myself. I am also getting fatter by the minute. I quit smoking three years ago, and quit drinking two years ago. Now all I do is eat! <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'>

Wabbit_Swayer

03-12-2004, 08:01 PM

dammit zumbo get back on your bike and start riding again you lazy butt lol. <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

zumbo

03-12-2004, 08:14 PM

For real! I will be preparing moto-cross bike for season abuse this week-end. Next week-end, I believe I will get my street bike out & prepare it for the season as well!

Rob Babcock

03-13-2004, 10:22 PM

I'm not trying to suggest a solution nor raise a big political ruckus, but philosophically and from a purely human standpoint, it's a shame to see a nation as great as America is reach the point where only only a portion of our populace can afford the basics of survival.  I just read that the worlds billionaires now are worth collectively $1.6 TRILLION dollars.  None of those guys ever have to step over a homeless guy on the way to work- they can afford to be pretty aloof from poverty, I imagine.

It's sad to see people dying of cancer and heart disease because they can't afford the relatively cheap preventive medicine that could nip their condition in the bud before it becomes a problem, to see people who lose all their teeth for want a few hundred bucks worth of dental care over their lifetime, and people crippled in their later years from a lack of basic care in their youth.  

I'm no bleeding heart liberal, and I'm not suggesting that the rich don't deserve to be rich nor that they are legally obligated to give anything away.  The world is what it is.  It's just such a shame to me because this is one of societies most greivous self inficted wounds.  You'd think enlightened self interest would dictate that there has to be a certain minimum standard of life that a prosperous, modern civilization ought to be able to ensure for its citizens.

I work in the banking industry now, but I used to work as a chef.  Despite making a pretty good living at it, I never had health insurance until about five years ago.  That's a "luxury" that a good many people I know simply can't afford.

I don't have the answer, I'm afraid, but it seems to me there has to be some happy medium between "cradle to grave" care and "every man for himself."

pam

03-14-2004, 07:36 AM

Hi Rob

If you feel bad about healthcare, just look at what is happening in Africa. If there is a God up there and he juge us on what is happening on our planet, we will ALL be sent to hell.

If our government would spend 10% of the military budget for water and feeding people, we would eliminate 95% of the terrorists.

03-14-2004, 08:58 PM

Believe it or not it was much worse pre medicare in this country when it really was fend for yourself. Of course back then there was much less to do and costs were far lower.
Rob Babcock, your other point raises the issue about the vast discrepancy between CEOs and their employees in the USA. This discrepancy is much greater than in other developed countries. As an MD (and one in the higher income brackets of the profeesion I believe) my income does not come close to what any of the VPs and CEOs of big or even medium size companies pull. No complaints for me but these guys don't deserve that much IMO.

Pam, I think we need to set up a barter your drugs for our audio gear.

zumbo

03-14-2004, 09:02 PM

Dan. Can you help a brother out?  <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'>

pam

03-16-2004, 11:44 AM

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Guest : Pam, I think we need to set up a barter your drugs for our audio gear.
Hi Dan S

About the barter, we have already given considering that a lot of drugs were developped in Canada (especially Montreal) because the salary of MD are lower (150K to 400K) so the cost of research are lower. From the time we have discovered insulin till 3TC (part of the tri-therapy) we have given to the drug world for a few decades.

Cost of drugs are high because of higher cost of markerting (more than double than the cost of developping the drugs). Marketing must be more expensive in US!

Actually developping drugs in North America will probably stop as there is a lot of doctor/biologist available in India. All the people working in the Drug companies in North America will probably have to live with competition from India (like IT people, accoutant, call centers).

What is interesting is this will lower the cost of phamaceuticals (therefore lowering the price of Drugs in US) but most of it will go in the pocket of the companies not the customers.

Something else, in a world with 1% interest rate and inflation under control (for more than 10 years), investors are still expecting minimum 15%-20% Return On Investment like in the 80's. This is part of the reason we pay too much for our audio/video gear and that you pay too much for your drugs: greed.

BTW, do you know what is the worst inflation for the stock market: salary going up! Interesting this attitude coming from people who wants 15% ROI with 2% inflation.

We are all in the same boat, Canadian and American alike. We only have differences in Foreign policy (we have no army and we are more humble) but internally we are facing the same challenge.

We need that your drugs comes down and our Audio/Video gear also comes down.

zipper

03-17-2004, 02:40 AM

I have to agree with most of the sentiments here. The company I work for has done a fair job of cutting overhead(employees) by offering early retirement packages. However,they have lost many valuable people & have no way to make up for the vast experience & knowledge they have lost. All in the name of the bottom line: What we look like to Wall St.
 What pisses me off most is that they want a down-sized crew to meet all customer commitments with perfect craftsmanship with no overtime. Sorry,but you can't have it all.
 When I see what the CEO's,presidents,VP's,etc. make every year for the incompetent decisions they pass down, I suddenly have no problem with what a pro athlete pulls in. At least I can see his/her work & efforts.

pam

03-26-2004, 02:09 AM

Public spending on healthcare from world health organization. You can also dig on World health report 2003 (http://www.who.int/whr/2003/en/)

The table below in from my local newspaper (sorry for the alignment it is manual).
Country * * % of GDP * *Per inhabitant (USD)
Australia * * * *5.6 * * * * * *1601
Austria * * * * **5.7 * * * * * *1513
Belgium * * * * 5.6 * * * * * *1616
Canada * * * ***6.5 * * * * * *1826
Finland * * * * **5.0 * * * * ** 1252
France * * * * **7.2 * * * * * * 1775
Germany * * * *8.1 * * * * * *2067
Great Britain **6,1 * * * * ** 1437
Italia * * * * * * *5.8 * * * * ** 1503
Japan * * * * * * 6,1 * * * * ** 1540
Norway * * * * * 6,6 * * * **** 2022
New-Zealand * 6,2 * * * * ** 1266
Spain * * * * * * *5.5 * * * ** * 1076
Sweden * * * * * 7,2 * * * *** 1622
Switzerland * * 5,8 * * * * ** 1796
USA * * * * * * ***5.9 * * ** ** 1992

In USA, health care expenditure exceeds 16% of GDP (http://www.who.int/director-general/speeches/1999/english/19990114_london.html) (BTW very interesting article - look at the conclusion).

There are more recent tables in the *annex on capital expenditure from the report of WHO (http://www.who.int/entity/whr/2003/annex_6_en.xls) but they basically show the same thing I have just written.

All country above spend a smaller percentage of health care on private. On the other side, almost all African country (not Senegal for example) inhabitants are spending a bigger percentage of their health care in the private sector. One thing for sure, your rich people (top 3%) must have top health care because they spend top dollars. Can you imagine that all this money is spent with 40% of the people not insured!

So only two country spend more on health than US: Germany (3.8% more) and Norway (1.5% more). Most of these country has free health care. US citizen are already paying for having free health care for everyone.

I have proven my point, Healthcare is a political decision. Of course everyone in the health industry has an opportunity to be greedy: Doctors, Lawyers, Administrators, Insurance companies. If you try to change the rules, all these people will lobby to keep them the same.

Also, in Canada, private medecine is not illegal. It is only that if you want to receive money from the goverment for treating patients, you are not allowed to charge in the public healthcare system.
So if you want to be private: you have to be 100% private.

Clint DeBoer

03-26-2004, 01:13 PM

Anybody in good health and under 40 should have them and their family on a Health Savings Account, or Medical Savings Account. That is, if your employer doesn't pay for your health care. I am speaking mostly to self-employed people.

Basically, you pay YOURSELF (novel idea) most of the money that would otherwise be going to a $700/month HMO/PPO plan. You tie it together with a HIGH-DEDUCTIBLE health insurance plan to cover you in the case of a major problem. You pay your doctors directly and essentially keep what you don't pay (can you imagine trying to get money back from an HMO claiming you only went to the doctor 3 times that year, but still paid them over $6000 for the privilege (sp?) of the co-pay???)

[Edit: Deleted political commentary]

BTW, that MSA plan - the unused money rolls over each year and it turns into an IRA when you hit retirement age. It's a win-win. Its tax deductible and its the secret the government doesn't want you to know.

For those of you whose employers pay your health care, or most of it, go to the HR person in your company and find out how much the total bill is per month. You'll be amazed. Most people have no idea.

Here is a link from a client of mine: Info on Health Savings Accounts (http://www.carolinahealthinsurance.net/individual_plans/HealthSavingsAccounts.html)

My wife and I have one and are saving tons of money. Even though we plan to have a baby next year, we will still come out on top - it's unbelievable.

pam

03-28-2004, 03:20 AM

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>hawke : People need to wake up (in America) and stop thinking of health care as an entitlement or else we're going to hend up with socialist coverage like some other countries have.
Hi Hawke

I don't agree with you and I repeat again: go read the post I did previously.

All G8/OECD/Richest country except US has a so called 'socialist' health care system: Japan, Great Britain, Germany, France, Canada, Sweden, Spain, Norway, etc.
In all of these countries heatlhcare costs less than in US (at least 30 % less, most of them more than 50% less). About waiting, what you hear is the worst case (but they do exists). Same as you hear about troubel in other countries.

I can choose any doctor in Quebec at my convenience. Same thing in all those 'socialist' countries. Sometimes we have some delays, but now, a lot of them have decreased because of better efficiency.

As far as I know, only in US you have HMOs where freedom of choosing a doctor is limited. US health care is better than other countries for the top 2% of the richest people.

Maybe you consider that the 'non socialist' system of the US is the best for health care. Your goverment spend as much as in the other countries on healthcare but 40 millions americans are not covered.

I must say that I am afraid of what will happen with our 'Capitalist' 'Free Market' when all services will be in India (and some other countries following their path), all manufacturing will be in China (and all countries following their paths). Who will buy these 'beautifull' things in Walmart when all the jobs will be somewhere else.

BTW, as a Canadian, I am in the same boat as you. Also if you want to have an very expensive operation go in Bangkok private hospital.

I agree with you that self insurance is the way to go: it is well known that 45% of the money you pay in insurance goes to administration and 55% to executing the service. I would get insurance for everything over ten thousands dollars.

Clint DeBoer

03-31-2004, 02:06 PM

What is your income tax rate where you live in Canada?

pam

04-07-2004, 04:47 AM

Higher than 40% (I have less income tax because I am not an employee , I own a business). Otherwise it would be more than 50%.

But my point is that regarding health care your public system is already paying as much as ours (actually more).

Our taxes also covers University at less than 1000$ per term, social welfare and of course the debt that we have accumulated in the 70's.

About the debt, Bush is doing the same thing that Trudeau did in Canada.

pam

04-07-2004, 04:50 AM

Forgot to say, we also have a tax 15% on everything that we buy except renting an appartment and food. On gas, cars, houses, etc.