Worst Period In Rock/Pop Music History???

[A. Vivaldi]

<font color='#000000'>Some say that the years 1960/1963 were the worst, and yes there was some crap put out in these years (Annette Funicello, Ricky Nelson, Frankie Avalon etc.) Some say the worst were the disco years 1975/1980. There was a lot of awful crap put out in these years, by disco and rock bands alike, and by a bunch of guys &amp; gals who were labeled &quot;softrock&quot; but were just a bunch of schlocky, schmalzty cafe musicians who would consider the group Chicago heavy (ala James Taylor, Dan Fogelberg, Carole King etc.) The worst period in my opinion however (I have a lot of em') is right here and now. This Hip Hop/Rap/House whatever has been going on since the early 1990's, longer than any other period/genre in rock/pop history, good or bad, and it seems to keep getting more annoying and in your face as time goes by (just like me). Think of all the progress that was made and the masterpieces produced in the years between 1964/1972. What lasting and memorable works have been created since 1994/2004? I can't wait for the day when I walk into a Goodwill or Salvation Army during one of my Classical Lp hunts, when I see the Britney Spears, Backstreet Boys, Beyonces and the unidentifiable Hip Hop groups of today sharing their rightful place along with the Andy Gibb's, Barry Manilows, Kool &amp; The Gangs and forgotten unidentifiables of yesterday in the $1.00 bins, and I know that day will come, sooner or later.</font>

[Rob Babcock]

<font color='#8D38C9'>Yeah, this is sorta the New Dark Ages of music. &nbsp;But to make too many sweeping &quot;era generalizations&quot; would be to miss the boat; sure, we have Eminem &amp; Britney, but we also have Flaming Lips, Built To Spill &amp; Beck, among others. &nbsp;Whlie there's an awful lot of crap, there's also a lot of good stuff now.

But, if you're talking the music that dominates the charts, then yeah- this is about as bad a time as it gets. &nbsp;Rap/Crap music has had about 14.99 minutes of its 15 minutes of fame, as far as I'm concerned.</font>

[EdR]

<font color='#000000'>Great topic,

If memory serves, the 70's were the time that the record companies started to perfect the 'hype' machine, and it became the era of the big overpromoted supergroups. &nbsp;The small creative artists were all but frozen out of any real distribution, and I recall it as very musically uninteresting compared with the creativity we saw in the 60's. &nbsp;By the beginning of the 80's, there was a backlash, and the Alternative scene, along with 'garage grunge' and so forth emerged opening up venues for some very innovative work.

While I agree with Gene that there was a lot of garbage music done, they pried open the gates to allow some great stuff too, and I have to admit, I'd take a screaming honest 'grunger' over the hyper polish, pre-canned, lobodomised sound of band like...oh....say... Journey. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':cool:'></font>

[BroonsBane]

<font color='#000000'>I saw a bumper sticker on a truck the other day...&quot;You can't spell CRAP without using the letters RAP&quot; I couldn't agree more.</font>

[allengarman]

<font color='#000000'>I share your sentiments. &nbsp;Check out my recent review of the Bob Marley tribute DVD. &nbsp;The guest performers included a few Rap singers that almost ruined the overall event. &nbsp;Rap influences on Reggie have had a tremendous negative impact on Jamacian music as well.

I am absolutely amazed that the Rap craze and big clown pant faze have continued this long.

Apparently &quot;Blondie&quot; invented Rap music with her song &quot;Rapture&quot;.</font>

[BroonsBane]

<font color='#000000'>Similarily...you can't spell &quot;CRAP&quot; without using the letters &quot;BOSE&quot;
Sorry...couldn't resist! &nbsp;<img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'></font>

[jeffsg4mac]

<font color='#000000'>Sorry ED, but I would listen to Journey over some stupid untalented grunge band any day of the week. At least there is some talent in Journey, there is/was no talent in the grunge bands it was/is just as bad as rap. The 60's sucked for pop music, it was better in the 70's and early 80's but after about 85 it went down hill fast and has not come back up yet.</font>

[duff]

<font color='#000000'>I think pop music is coming around. *

But very very slowly, and it's nowhere near impacting the quality of the hit charts. *It may never get that far, as most of it could just as easily be &quot;indie&quot; or something other than &quot;pop.&quot; *Music labels (types of music, that is) are becoming increasingly useless as influences cross genres IMO.

I've discovered a bunch of decent bands in the past year or so most of which tend to have a greater pop sense than I'm used to. *So maybe my tastes are evolving, or maybe this is really where the action is. *

Maybe it's just my narrow focus that's helping me tune out the mainstream. *And I doubt many of these bands will stand the test of time, but at least for now they are an enjoyable alternative to the radio.</font>

[EdR]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>jeffsg4mac : Sorry ED, but I would listen to Journey over some stupid untalented grunge band any day of the week. At least there is some talent in Journey, there is/was no talent in the grunge bands it was/is just as bad as rap. The 60's sucked for pop music, it was better in the 70's and early 80's but after about 85 it went down hill fast and has not come back up yet.
Oh...we're talking about Pop music. *Sorry, don't much listen to it myself, but, I'd agree- while the 60's and the early 80's were very exciting musical times, at least for me, almost none of it was 'pop', so I'd have to agree with you.

I guess one of the things I like in music is what I'd call authenticity- hard to describe, but I know it when I hear it. *Not to pick on Journey, except as an example, but that bland, overmixed, focus group tested, prepackaged sound doesnt' have it. *But perhaps, that's the essence of 'pop'- don't really know. *On the other hand, the Fug's 'Kill for Peace'... now that was the real deal.</font>

[zumbo]

<font color='#000000'>80's hair bands. F@G$!

Any music made with a machine and an id10t with a mic! ALL YEARS &amp; STYLES!!

I have some form of respect for any musician or group of musicians that PLAY musical instruments as long as they don't wear make-up &amp; look like drag-queens!

<img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'></font>

[zipper]

<font color='#000000'>Once again,great topic. I've somehow managed to survive all the eras &amp; trends of crappy music since the 60's. There have been enough bands come along &amp; enough bands stay together through the dark times to allow me to quench my thirst for ripping guitars &amp; ,well,generally the kind of sound that makes old people scowl at you.Unfortunately,I looked in the mirror the other day &amp; discovered I have become an &quot;old people&quot;. That doesn't stop me from driving past high school kids blaring JP's live cut of &quot;The green manalishi&quot;.
&nbsp; I remember in the later 70's I was dying for the new Zeppelin album to come out,expecting some more kick-butt stuff like &quot;Physical Graffiti&quot;. My jaw almost hit the floor when I heard what was on it. I thought &quot;what the hell is THAT? My worst nightmare had come true. Zeppelin was mellowing. Oh well. I just sucked it up,bought tickets to see someone I'd never heard of(Pat Travers) &amp; I was off &amp; running again.
&nbsp; A special thanks to Ozzy,the Scorpions,Judas Priest,Queensryche,Alice in Chains,&amp;, what the hell, Metallica &amp; Def Leppard for keeping my head banging through the years &amp; giving me reason enough NOT to buy Simon &amp; Garfunkels' greatest hits until after I turned 40.</font>

[jeffsg4mac]

<font color='#000000'>Zipper, LOL <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> *I won't buy simon and garfagle when I turn 80. I will still be listening to the Scorpions. <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'></font>

[zipper]

<font color='#000000'>Jeff
&nbsp; <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'> Hahaha <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'> &nbsp;God bless ya,we'll see. We rockers have survived no matter what they've thrown at us.

&nbsp;The onslaught of &quot;crap music&quot; with all of the silly names these &quot;crappers&quot; give themselves is just a fad,like disco,&amp; will pass. But I have to agree with Rob that this is as bad as it gets. I think I prefer the Bee Gees over this crap(he said,gritting his teeth).</font>

[zipper]

<font color='#000000'>AV ,this time I whole-heartedly agree with you. Great post.</font>

[Rob Babcock]

<font color='#8D38C9'>I'm creeping up on &quot;old&quot; at almost 34 (old in the sense of your average Britney/Eminem fan- you know, the ones all music seems marketed to), but I beat you to the Simon &amp; Garfunkel! &nbsp;They were a great band. &nbsp;I also like Neil Young and lotsa other Dino-Rockers. &nbsp;My classical collection numbers in the hundreds and I've been listening to a lot of jazz lately. &nbsp;BUT....

I still gotta rock out! &nbsp;Gimme Metal or give me Death! <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'> &nbsp; Priest, Maiden, Slayer, Queensryche- god help me, I do love it so!

I assembled a metal sampler for my comrades at AudioCircle.com, sort of an intro to the wonderful world of metal and a refresher for lapsed metalheads. &nbsp;It was a lot of work but a lot of fun (I'm mailing the next batch tomorrow). &nbsp;You'd be amazed how many of us there are out there &quot;keeping the faith&quot; for the old metal bands.</font>

[zipper]

<font color='#000000'>Attaboy Rob. There's nothing wrong with having music for every mood. But when I head out to the highway,I gotta rock. I would be remiss if I didn't mention RJ Dio &amp; The Stone Temple Pilots. I also just found the CD &quot;Hang on for your life&quot; by Shooting Star. Don't know if you remember them but the title track is a great driving tune.</font>

[jeffsg4mac]

<font color='#000000'>Zip, Actually I have always liked the Bee Bee's. They have some pretty good albums. Main Course is a classic, but what do I know I like ManoWar too <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'></font>

[Rob Babcock]

<font color='#8D38C9'>Just don't tell me you've got Savatage records in your collection... <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'></font>

[jeffsg4mac]

<font color='#000000'>Rob Who's Savatage? a metal band, I never heard of them. I'm not a big metal fan, but I like some stuff. Have you heard Manowar's warriors of the world CD, I like a lot of the songs on that. Some metal I have heard I detest, It has to be melodic, non satanic, and non screaming before I will like it.</font>

<font color='#000000'>Great topic. It is also a sure sign of age as we are less in touch with much of what is out there than when we were younger. My take is that in any period- particularly those mentioned above- when ever the big rtecord companies have tight control of the situation and control the radio the music sucks. When a new thing happens be it Elvis, the Beatles, late 60s, punk/new wave the stuff is creatrive and exciting. Sadly the record companies and radio stations are in cahoots like never before and make no pretense about creating stars instead of discovering them. Most radio is a wasteland. The satellite stuffis good for now but will be bought out if it becomes sufficiently successful. A handful of college radio stations are still good. There is some good music being made if you can find it but the small labels which have historically introduced the new big things are few and far between. I personally like mapleshade (mapleshaderecords.com) for very high quallity jazz and roots music with superb recording quality. Anybody else know a good one?
The big companies put out weak music, poorly recorded and overpriced and wonder why sales are down. Downloading ain't the problem. While I might feel bad for small artists from a copyright point of view, the small guys are usually happy for the exposure and I don't care if a million teenage girls download Britney and deprive her and her label of a fraction of their obscene profits.</font>

[zipper]

<font color='#000000'>OK Jeff,I'll come clean.I just bought the Bee Gees best of CD a couple months ago. Also,don't know if you've ever seen any of the Cirque du Soleil shows,but the Saltimbanco show had some great musicians, which are in view during the show,&amp; I highly recommend demoing the CD(I have it) along with the Varakai shows' music. If you ever get the chance to see any of their shows I'd do it. It's unlike anything else.</font>

[A. Vivaldi]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sadly the record companies and radio stations are in cahoots like never before and make no pretense about creating stars instead of discovering them. Most radio is a wasteland.</td></tr></table> &nbsp; I totally agree. The radio in the USA is appallingly bad, and I rarely ever listen to it. Their forcing down peoples throats what they and the other media outlets think they ought to hear. It's almost like a conspiracy. Keep repeating the same few songs over and over and over... and you drive people mad and incite violence. &nbsp; &nbsp;<img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'></font>

[A. Vivaldi]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>jeffsg4mac : Bob Who's Savatage? a metal band, I never heard of them. I'm not a big metal fan, but I like some stuff. Have you heard Manowar's warriors of the world CD, I like a lot of the songs on that. Some metal I have heard I detest, It has to be melodic, non satanic, and non screaming before I will like it.
I can't believe what passes for metal nowadays. I was at a friends house who has digital cable and was listening to the &quot;metal&quot; channel. What a joke. There were all these bands that kept coming on, I never heard of any of them, and all of them had some whiney moron screaming and shrieking at the top of his lungs. The music was also repugnent. Years ago, musicians used to be required to have some talent before they were signed or aired. Recording time in a professional studio was expensive, and your average loser didn't get to see the inside of one. Nowadays recording technology has become so cheap and common any group of bozos can make a half way decent sounding record, and we are thus flooded with oceans of garbage to wade through. My solution? I'd make it a law to require background checks and waiting periods for anyone wanting to purchase recording equipment, just like handguns. &quot;Sorry sir, I can't sell you that Sony Dat recorder.&quot; &quot;We've had reports that you suck a lot.&quot; <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'></font>

[A. Vivaldi]

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Rob Babcock : <font color='#000000'>Yeah, this is sorta the New Dark Ages of music. *But to make too many sweeping &quot;era generalizations&quot; would be to miss the boat; sure, we have Eminem &amp; Britney, but we also have Flaming Lips, Built To Spill &amp; Beck, among others. *Whlie there's an awful lot of crap, there's also a lot of good stuff now.

But, if you're talking the music that dominates the charts, then yeah- this is about as bad a time as it gets. *Rap/Crap music has had about 14.99 minutes of its 15 minutes of fame, as far as I'm concerned.</font>
<font color='#000000'>Isn't it funny what the term &quot;pop&quot; has turned into? Pop is supposed to mean whatever is popular, and back in the 60's and 70's bands like The Beatles, Led Zepplin etc. would've been considered pop. Now however this rap/hip hop crud has been around for so long the term &quot;pop&quot; is synonymous with that kind of stuff! &nbsp;The media makes this stuff seem omnipresent, but it's only a small fraction of the music in the world, but the masses, with their standards ever lowering, gobble it up. I can't believe how bad some stuff is on the radio I'm sometimes forced to hear. Some bands on the alternative station would've been booed off the stage a mere ten years ago, even by teenagers. The rap stuff I hear doesn't even have coherent rhythms anymore, they don't gel together with the weird non-musical noises and idiot's babbling nonsense (not rapping). Some would say that my ramblings are of an older person, out of touch with today's youth and music scene, and that nothings really changed. That's true to an extent, but I'm only 31, and I've been waiting for things to get better since I was 21, and I doubt any old fuddy-duddy back in the early 60's who hated the awful sounding Beatles with their long hair, would've judged the likes of Ludicrus as the same. The only regrets I have was not realizing how much better some of the music was at the time I was growing up, which I ripped on then but like now. God only knew what my ears would be in store for later on!</font>

[jeffsg4mac]

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>zipper : <font color='#000000'>OK Jeff,I'll come clean.I just bought the Bee Gees best of CD a couple months ago.</font>
<font color='#000000'>LOL <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> &nbsp;I think a lot more people like the BeeGee's then will admit. They are/were a talented group of guys.</font>

<font color='#000000'>OK I'll admit some of &nbsp;those later seventies Califrnia style bands were better than I had admitted at the time (although I will always hate the Eagles) but the whatever talent the BeeGees had was overwhelmed by their excrable material.

I miss the days when radio DJs could lead the listeners into unknown but wonderful territory. The present state gives the audience what they want but the audience don' t know better!</font>

[Rob Babcock]

<font color='#8D38C9'>Of course, when Britney sucks a lot, that may not be a bad thing! <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/love.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':love:'> &nbsp; Sorry, couldn't resist.

There really are very few real metal bands around nowadays, and the few there are older bands &amp; bands made up of older bands. &nbsp;The &quot;nu-metal&quot; and rap/metal crap is not fit to be called metal at all.

I think they should all be fed to Gwar &amp; Piledriver!</font>

[A. Vivaldi]

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>jeffsg4mac : <font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote (zipper @ Feb. 26 2004,1:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">OK Jeff,I'll come clean.I just bought the Bee Gees best of CD a couple months ago.
LOL <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> *I think a lot more people like the BeeGee's then will admit. They are/were a talented group of guys.</font></td></tr></table>
<font color='#000000'>I thought The Bee Gees first album was fairly good, and highly underrated, even if it was a rip off of The Beatles and the psychadelic movement at the time. Nobody seems to remember their early albums: Odessa, Trafalgar, etc. I have a psychological fondness for some of their later disco period stuff, only because I remember hearing it when I was very young, but from a musical standpoint it was pretty lame.</font>

[Clint DeBoer]

<font color='#000080'>Going along with zumbo... 2 words: Glam Rock</font>

[A. Vivaldi]

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Rob Babcock : <font color='#000000'>Of course, when Britney sucks a lot, that may not be a bad thing! <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/love.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':love:'> * Sorry, couldn't resist.</font>
<font color='#000000'>I was waiting for someone to say something like that! <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'></font>

[MerlinMacuser]

<font color='#000000'>Please, please everyone. Let's get our facts straight. Bob Dylan invented Rap music with the Subterreanean Homesick Blues.

Johnny's in the basement mixin' up some medicine
I'm on the pavement thinkin' 'bout the goverment....
...the pump don't work cause the vandals stole the handle.</font>

[annunaki]

<font color='#000000'>The thing that disappoints me the most about modern music, (this includes nearly all generes) is poor recording practices. The lack of dynamic range and overamplified signals is very disturbing. Very few of the current acts offer a well recorded album, meaning one with a crest factor (db) in the mid teens or higher. Producers are compressing the hell out of music in order to have a &quot;louder&quot; album than the next wanna be artist. There are actually very few &quot;artists&quot; like was stated earlier. Every idiot with a computer and a digital &quot;beat box&quot; is putting out an album now days.

What ever happened to putting a good degree of investment into mastering and studio time to convey the &quot;feel&quot; or &quot;passion&quot; of the artist's work. With a lack of artists there are few to keep the art form alive.</font>

[Rip Van Woofer]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>MerlinMacuser : Please, please everyone. Let's get our facts straight. Bob Dylan invented Rap music with the Subterreanean Homesick Blues.

Johnny's in the basement mixin' up some medicine
I'm on the pavement thinkin' 'bout the goverment....
...the pump don't work cause the vandals stole the handle.
Wrong. Gilbert and Sullivan invented rap with their &quot;patter songs&quot; like &quot;The Major General's Song&quot;! <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':;):'>

As much as I think rap is tiresome, some of the early, more political and lighthearted rappers (like Grand Master Flash and Tone Loc, respectively) were pretty good based on the admittedly limited sample I have overheard. And I was once recently encamped next to a bunch of crazy Canadian kids on a fishing trip in Ontario and, God help me, I even thought some of the Eminem they were playing was kind of witty and sharp at times. Might have just been the fatigue and liquor, though (I joined 'em rather than try to beat 'em and didn't get much sleep. I think they temporarly adopted me as a sort of friendly uncle.). Quasi-spoken poetry over music has a long history in many cultures and genres and is not necessarily crap.

But hey, I'm just a middle-aged suburban white guy.</font>

[MerlinMacuser]

<font color='#000000'>I'm not sure they (Gilbert &amp; Sullivan) count, being English and all, like that there.

Have you seen those prints/posters trying to show the evolution of rock or blues or whatever genre' in the general shape of a tree with various artists names on roots and branches? I wonder if anyone has tried to do one with HipHop yet?

Really though, I've been listening to the new Dylan remasters on SACD and being impressed with his artistry all over again. I used to patter around with guitar a bit and even made myself a harmonica holder out of a bent coat hanger. I played lots of gigs and even made a little money knowing how to look cool and strum some chords.

I was invited to play at a mother/daughter banquet in a Methodist church in ~1967 at the height of the war. So, I sang some Peter, Paul and Mary stuff then Dylan's Ballad of a Thin Man, It Ain't Me Babe and Positively 4th Street. The daughters were really digging it but the mothers were glaring at me. I had been so focused on learning these songs that I hadn't really listened to the words UNTIL THAT VERY MOMENT. GASP! So to save the day I quickly sequed into Frank Sinatra's &nbsp;Strangers in the Night and It was a Very Good Year.

So glad I didn't do Masters of War or the Lonesome Death of Mattie Carroll...or even some Phil Ochs!

Got to say that Bob's songs were a very good thing for a healthy young teenager to know in those halcyon days.
&nbsp;<img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'></font>

[Rip Van Woofer]

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>MerlinMacuser : <font color='#000000'>I was invited to play at a mother/daughter banquet in a Methodist church in ~1967 at the height of the war. So, I sang some Peter, Paul and Mary stuff then Dylan's Ballad of a Thin Man, It Ain't Me Babe and Positively 4th Street. The daughters were really digging it but the mothers were glaring at me. I had been so focused on learning these songs that I hadn't really listened to the words UNTIL THAT VERY MOMENT. GASP! So to save the day I quickly sequed into Frank Sinatra's *Strangers in the Night and It was a Very Good Year.

So glad I didn't do Masters of War or the Lonesome Death of Mattie Carroll...or even some Phil Ochs!

Got to say that Bob's songs were a very good thing for a healthy young teenager to know in those halcyon days.
*<img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'></font>
<font color='#000000'><img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'></font>

[rorythedog]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Rip Van Woofer : <table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote (MerlinMacuser @ Mar. 17 2004,2:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Please, please everyone. Let's get our facts straight. Bob Dylan invented Rap music with the Subterreanean Homesick Blues.

Johnny's in the basement mixin' up some medicine
I'm on the pavement thinkin' 'bout the goverment....
...the pump don't work cause the vandals stole the handle.
Wrong. Gilbert and Sullivan invented rap with their &quot;patter songs&quot; like &quot;The Major General's Song&quot;! <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':;):'>

As much as I think rap is tiresome, some of the early, more political and lighthearted rappers (like Grand Master Flash and Tone Loc, respectively) were pretty good based on the admittedly limited sample I have overheard. And I was once recently encamped next to a bunch of crazy Canadian kids on a fishing trip in Ontario and, God help me, I even thought some of the Eminem they were playing was kind of witty and sharp at times. Might have just been the fatigue and liquor, though (I joined 'em rather than try to beat 'em and didn't get much sleep. I think they temporarly adopted me as a sort of friendly uncle.). Quasi-spoken poetry over music has a long history in many cultures and genres and is not necessarily crap.

But hey, I'm just a middle-aged suburban white guy.</td></tr></table>
I had a similar experience back in 2000. My wife and I were working in Algonquin Park, Ontario. All the staff lived in individual huts. Having been in the country for two months by then, my own personal stash had run out long before. I was on a mission.

I eventually managed to meet &quot;the man&quot;. In his hut he was playing this strange, never heard before, rap music. Nothing like this had ever before been heard in Scotland, that's for sure.

Anyway, my paranoid waryness soon turned to awe. We were listening to Eminem. On a ghettoblaster! The mix was unbelievably intricate (although I'm sure the weed played a not inconsiderable part in my seemingly enhanced aural capabilities). I now have lots of that type of music. It made a lasting impression.

Unfortunately, in this day and age, everything has a predetermined (re-short) lifespan. The marketing men now control the minds of teenagers and they feel they have to keep the wheel turning. Because it's like a wheel, if you live long enough, you'll hear the same things coming around.

If the likes of Bob Dylan, Led Zep or The Stones were to debut in this day and age, they'd be gone in a few months. At least you could rest assured that it would be back in a couple of months.

On a lighter note, do all Canadian teenagers smoke weed?</font>

[Rip Van Woofer]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">On a lighter note, do all Canadian teenagers smoke weed?
</td></tr></table>

This bunch sure did. Canada seems to have a more casual official stance towards marijuana use, if not growing and supplying, than we do here in the U.S. O, Canada!</font>

[rorythedog]

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Rip Van Woofer : <font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">On a lighter note, do all Canadian teenagers smoke weed?


This bunch sure did. Canada seems to have a more casual official stance towards marijuana use, if not growing and supplying, than we do here in the U.S. O, Canada!</font></td></tr></table>
<font color='#000000'>Canada has a more casual stance towards almost everything than the US</font>

[Rob Babcock]

<font color='#8D38C9'>Except gun control! <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> &nbsp; Man, what a bunch of Nazis. &nbsp;The Govt, I mean- the Canadian people I know are pretty nice. <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'>

BTW, I dunno who invented rap &quot;music,&quot; but they deserve to have the crap beat out of 'em! <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'></font>

[A. Vivaldi]

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Rob Babcock : <font color='#000000'>Except gun control! <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> * Man, what a bunch of Nazis. *The Govt, I mean- the Canadian people I know are pretty nice. <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'>

BTW, I dunno who invented rap &quot;music,&quot; but they deserve to have the crap beat out of 'em! <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'></font>
<font color='#000000'>I think Crap musak had it's not so humble beginnings back in the early 80's during the break dance craze, and it's evolved little since, except to get a hell of a lot more annoying.</font>

[A. Vivaldi]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Unfortunately, in this day and age, everything has a predetermined (re-short) lifespan. The marketing men now control the minds of teenagers and they feel they have to keep the wheel turning. Because it's like a wheel, if you live long enough, you'll hear the same things coming around.

If the likes of Bob Dylan, Led Zep or The Stones were to debut in this day and age, they'd be gone in a few months. At least you could rest assured that it would be back in a couple of months.
</td></tr></table> &nbsp;I have to say I beg to differ. Great music is great music, period, no matter when it comes out, and teenagers do not dictate what everyone listens to. Many people who started listening to Dylan were college folkies, and the audiences for prog rock bands were generally in their early to late 20's. There has always been bubble gum/schlocky/worthless music for teenagers. Watching a show like The Brady Bunch, one would never get the feeling that bands like Black Sabbath, Led Zepplin, Deep Purple or The Who even existed or were even popular, but they were. Who was Marcia's idol? Robert Plant? Ozzy? no, it was (ugh) Davy Jones (even the Monkees are better than a lot of todays crap). I know using The Brady Bunch is extreme, but it's an example of how the media tries to implant falsehoods in society. As for what goes around comes around? You may be right about that, but the likes of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc. haven't came back around yet, and it's been 250 years!</font>

[frkuhn]

<font color='#000000'>I think the problem is that great music is more and more underground and cult, and the success is more and more going towards the crap stuff.

I can't remember a huge sucessfull new act that showed up in the last ten years that has also huge quality (like Dylan or Zep), someone you know its gonna last at least 20 years. <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('></font>

[Rob Babcock]

<font color='#8D38C9'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You may be right about that, but the likes of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc. haven't came back around yet, and it's been 250 years! </td></tr></table>

<img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'> I wish they would! *That'd be something! *Their music is going strong, though.</font>

[Unregistered]

I think that the late 1990s-today happens to be the worst, at least as far as mainstream radio goes. Up until the late 1980s, an interesting song could get substantial radio airplay in the United States. I mean, even in the late 1980s, you could still hear the occasional XTC or Julian Cope or Church song alongside the standard Paula Abdul/Duran Duran/Hall and Oates garbage.

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Well I can say this: The era of 'rap' has only two good things come out of it. The Insane Clown Posse albums "The Great Milenko" and "The Amazing jeckel Brothers". Totally hilarious.

That having been said, I am a young pup who has just started (late at 25) the road to audiophile. I was 22 before i even knew you weren't supposed to listen to boomboxes & shelf systems! :eek:

Luckily, most of the greats have compiled "best of" and greatest hits albums. I respect the musical ability of David Bowie, but I am not buying his 23 studio albums in 2004, and The Rolling Stones didn't have very much good material that wasn't covered in the original 'Hot Rocks' collection.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled post.

[Mudcat]

Who was Marcia's idol? Robert Plant? Ozzy? no, it was (ugh) Davy Jones

How on earth did you know that????

but the likes of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc. haven't came back around yet, and it's been 250 years!</font>

There have been a few close calls in tha last hundred year though

John Brahms, Igor (John) Stravinsky, Pete Tchaikovsky, Sergi (Steve) Rachmaninoff, Ben Britten, Pete Gabriel, and Tony Carey, and since this an HT based forum, maybe Jon Williams.

[mike_p]

<font color='#000000'>I think the problem is that great music is more and more underground and cult, and the success is more and more going towards the crap stuff.

I can't remember a huge sucessfull new act that showed up in the last ten years that has also huge quality (like Dylan or Zep), someone you know its gonna last at least 20 years. <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('></font>

lemme help your memory.. Radiohead

errr, maybe too underground?

[cornelius]

Radiohead's music (one of our few hopes right now) unfortunately is few and far between. 25-30 years ago similar creative output was more commonplace. I'm very afraid that a lot of what happened musically not so long ago, is already a lost art. BTW, I'm not old enough to be an old fart.

[frkuhn]

lemme help your memory.. Radiohead

errr, maybe too underground?

Yep, Radiohead is a good one! :)

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there are no good new acts. There are many, but they just don't get the success they deserve.

[mike_p]

I saw them live at Coachella a couple months ago.. I was completely blown away, I still get goosebumps thinking about it. I was completely shocked how good they sound live.. even with the mega speaker outdoor venue thing going on.. these guys are TRUE musicians in every sense of the word.

As far as I'm concerned every album (with the exception of their first) is a master-piece... can you tell I'm a huge fan. ;)

mike

Yep, Radiohead is a good one! :)

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there are no good new acts. There are many, but they just don't get the success they deserve.

[O'Shag]

Every era brings good and bad, even within one artist. Mozart - most of his stuff is pure magic, but some is mediocre (I know I know; Blasphemy!).

Bach, what can you say except he was a friggin genius - just listen to Concerto for two pianos: C minor (BWV 1060) C major (BWV 1061) D Minor (BWV 1063) D Major (BWV 1064) - He frolics effortlessly into the mathetmatical fabric of scale and harmonic structures, and then produces pure magic, (rather like Beckham taking a free kick from just outside the box). And he does all this while he's shagging his way to a heart attack (he fathered 21 children). But many of Bach's contemporaries were producing rubbish.

There's good and bad in every common era.

The 40s thru 60s - many great pieces of music, but many pieces of crap also. In the 60s -70s there was a lot of really uninspired stuff including most light pop and disco, but then there was Oscar Peterson (best Jazz piano player of all time IMHO), Creedance Clearwater Revival, ELP, J Tull, Who, Led Z, Jimi Hendrix, Floyd, even the Carpenters for God's sake (although I'm ashamed to admit that one) and many more. The 80s had a lot ogf good stuff - how about the Clash, the Pogues, The English Beat, VAN HALEN, etc. But as always, there were many really embarrassing ensembles where the point itself was hard to grasp let alone the possiblity of liking the music. Flock of Seagulls??? Does anyone remember what were they running so far away from? Probably themselves - with embarrassment.

The nineties - Oasis, Nirvana, Pearl Jam etc etc, but the wasteland of commercially popular boy-band over-scaley-warm n fuzzy- ultra-harmony-for no-good-reason, and rap music smothered everything.

Using commercially released music to qualify a choice of an era where things are pretty suckified, then it would seem to me there is less creative energy surfacing today than in times past (although I'm sure there's plenty of genius lurking in garages all over this most creative of countries). This could be alot to do with money-making 'machines' that churn out boy-bands, Madonna types(sorry but most of here stuff is pure shiite), Cher (a beautiful looking mongolian warbler in a Gee-string and holey fishnet stockings), and Britney Spears( although she is a hotty, and whoops I did it again on video can be rather arousing).

For me, I don't think there's one genre or any one particular era where I don't like something (mongolian warbling might be the exception). To be honest, much of the music of today may be reasonably considered shiite, but then again the raw energy and quality from some is compelling.

Eminem. Some of his lyrics put me off at first. But if you listen through some of the stupid nonsense in a lot of his lyrics, you start to hear some real talent. Watch 8 mile, and you have to admit the guy even has some acting ability.

I'll stop because I think I've been talking out my arse since the second paragraph. Anyway I love good music, even if its sung by the Bee Gees, or Johan Gambleputti de von dingle dangle dungle... of Ulm.

[fdrennen]

You're all right I remember way back when we listened to AM pop radio in the sixties we got a variety of stuff; Louie Armstrong, Frank Sinatra, The Beetles,Rolling Stones, James Brown, Broadway show tunes, Jazz, on and on. After the advent of dreaded Disco (Oy vey!), radio stations started to pedgeon-hole themselves and listening to one pop station every record sounds like the one they just finished playing. there are many culprits in this cultural mess we find ourselves in theese days, it starts with schools, when the budget crunch is on the first thing to go is music. In kindergarten when I attended all teachers in that grade played piano. Now teachers teach thier students a bunch of songs to maybe three tunes Old MacDonald, London bridges and twinkle twinkle little star, so kids grow up thinking thats all there is to music. So we have a generation beleiving that Rap and music are the same thing we have rap music an oxy-moron if I ever heard one.

[jamiel]

the type of ignorant, defeatist attitude so prevalent in this thread is one that annoys me on many, many levels.

first of all, the logic in this thread seems to dictate that if the quality of Clear Channel radio goes downhill, the quality of music overall goes downhill also. i fail to see how that makes any sense whatsoever. yes, radio has become steadily worse over the years, as it becomes more homogenized and commercialized with certain conglomerates owning and hence controlling the output of virtually all media. payola, advertising, promotion, etc - money. money and its tightening grip on everything that exists is the problem. not the quality of the music scene. to think it is the latter is merely ignorant and illogical.

there are too many amazing albums being released for me to listen to, at the moment. the fact that very very very few current acts have actually been named in this thread leads me to suspect that virtually noone in this thread has even bothered to look for any new music. if you wait for music to be spoonfed to you while you sit there on your ***, of course you won't find anything. even just restricting it to this year, let alone the last few years or even the last decade as some nut suggested - a.c. newman, devendra banhart, guided by voices, wilco, sonic youth, of montreal, xiu xiu, tv on the radio, iron & wine, les savy fav, the polyphonic spree, !!!, the animal collective, deerhoof, mountain goats, french kicks, ratatat, modest mouse, sufjan stevens, magnetic fields, morrissey, gomez, john frusciante (guitarist in the red hot chili peppers), the beta band, stereolab, the walkmen, franz ferdinand, the liars, the secret machines, mission of burma, and the one am radio have all released lovely albums this year. and it's only july. how many of them have you guys heard? or have you just been listening to old stones records all year? and that list is even excluding hip hop (madvillain, blockhead...), jazz (brad mehldau...) and electronic music (mouse on mars...).

this inability or refusal to look beyond radio also reflects in some of the hilariously cliched comments on rap music. here's a tip, slick - most "fads" don't last three decades. i think people gave up dismissing rap as a "fad" in about 1992. the fact that some people are still persisting is hilarious (when's this whole punk fad going to die out then?). you guys are judging a gigantic, multi-faceted genre based upon about 0.000001% of what has been produced. how would you like it if some kid heard a Good Charlotte single on the radio and chose to take their crumminess as an indicator of the quality of Highway 61 Revisited or Revolver? or if someone heard Kenny * on the radio and chose to take that as an indicator of the quality of Headhunters or The Black Saint & The Sinner Lady? Because that's basically the equivalent of what you're doing. open your minds and listen to some Aesop Rock, Cannibal Ox, Mos Def, De La Soul, RJD2, Public Enemy, Aceyalone, Organized Konfusion, Atmosphere, Eyedea, Sage Francis or something.

the internet has provided more facility to discover new music than ever before. why you guys are chosing to ignore it completely is just baffling to me.

[Mudcat]

Could it be that we have heard it and still don't like it?

But you do hit upon one very valid point that was made here in this thread, and that is to each their own, or whatever.

[jamiel]

Could it be that we have heard it and still don't like it?


as I said, I am assuming that is not the case based on the fact it has not been mentioned. all that has been mentioned, with a couple of exceptions, is superstar MTV denizens like eminem and britney or generic references to "cRap music" (very original joke there btw, i've never heard that one before) or whatever. and also, most of the artists/bands that are positively mentioned are fairly lightweight stuff - the stones, pearl jam, oasis, generic metal - and don't exactly suggest superelitist taste which would exclude all of what i mentioned.

[cornelius]

ok, the music industry is filled with idiots, so we're not easily exposed to many of those pretty great artists mentioned by jamiel. But, I still think there is a musical side to the art of writing and playing music that is generally getting lost. It's up to some of these younger musicians to keep it alive. Best example today: Meshell Ndegeocello. Great songs, and her band can PLAY.

[Haasenator]

A the beginning of this thread everbody was putting down some very decent bands. Now my point is that people will generally like music from their era more because they grew up with it. I personally like things with heavy beats like electronic music and heavy rock. Personal preference. This is because I play drums and have for a long time now. You would be surprised how much of a effect drumming causes on your preference of music because you grow on music with heavy beats because you play it. My sister plays guitar and she likes things like Jimi Hendricks and Led Zeppling and she is only 17. So my point to say is that everbody likes different music because of age and musical instruments that they play. IMO poeple that don't play a musical instrument and then the put it down should have less say in the matter because they *sometimes don't know what they are talking about. All of this is just my opinion. ;)

[Popsterman]

Some interesting and valid points have been made here. I feel compelled to add a few thoughts of my own.

Firstly, I disagree with the guy who feels we should dedicate our lives to finding great hidden or unknown pop music out there. There isn't time and it's not our job.

It IS the job of the music industry and radio to select the best available music (which to them, in recent years, often means the worst) and bring it to the world.

They're certainly failing since little high quality pop music has been made or heard since about 1983. In addition, the music biz has been losing countless millions of dollars for many years now.

Two of the music industry's most embarrassing secrets are that back catalog material consistenly outsells new releases and more people over 30 listen to and buy "rock music" than people under 30. In other words, the Beatles are still outselling most of what's out there 34 years after they broke up -- and for many good and obvious reasons.

As a general rule, most of the truly great stuff will find you. If it doesn't, it wasn't really that great. Great pop music survives and is eventually heard by nearly everyone listening. The inferior stuff either doesn't get widely heard or is briefly promoted, disappears and is appropriately forgotten.

Regarding rap and hip hop (genres I consider to be mostly worthless sonic cancers that have largely forced quality pop music into a premature grave), it is astonishing that anything as mindless, negative, atonal and monotonous ever succeeded initially. It's even more incredible that it is still around annoying millions more than 25 years later. Rap and hip hop's extremely limited points were made within hours of their arrival decades ago and they've been endlessly repeating the same swill ever since.

Happily, rap and hip hop are very old news (finally) and the world has never been more ripe for a musical (and cultural) revolution that will wash away all the mountains of rubbish out there the way grunge music swept hair metal off the radar almost overnight.

Whether such a massive and long overdue musical sea change will ever happen remains to be seen, of course, but the need has never been greater in our time than it is today.

Regarding the laundry list of bands listed above, in my opinion, most of them are "off the radar" and not heard on the radio primarily because their songs tend to be weak, poorly written and uninteresting. I haven't heard all of them but I've heard enough of them to get a very good sampling.

The same sad tale is true if you visit original music clubs in, say, Manhattan. Not long ago I spoke to an intelligent, musically discriminating woman who managed a band that had played all over that market. When I asked her what was going on in the New York music scene, she gushed for a minute or two about how exciting it was, how many great bands there were and what great singing and playing she had heard. When she was done, I asked her if she had heard any great original songs. She paused and I already had my answer. "No," she said with evident disappointment in her voice.

Of course most bands are writing and promoting rubbish -- it's all they've heard on the radio and in clubs for close to two decades now. Garbage in, garbage out.

While I haven't given up on popular music, you could have turned your radios off in 1983 and not missed much of anything in the 21 years since.

I hope one day soon that changes for the better.

Scott in NJ aka Popsterman

[Unregistered]

I agree with everything you've said, except for this: 'While I haven't given up on popular music, you could have turned your radios off in 1983 and not missed much of anything in the 21 years since.'

I would place the beginning of the demise of 'good' music about 10 years later - the mid '90s, right about the time that grunge and rap started to be 'mainstream'.

[Unregistered]

it may sound bizzare but there are some death metal bands these days that are almost bringing back the classical music and adding a lot more edge, even though these bands dont have orchestras behind them but synths...the sounds mix together very well

the guy who said that grunge bands were not talented, hasnt listend to alice in chains, soundgarden, or pearl jam, alot of the musicianship in these bands is outstanding. as for nirvana their songs had a catch like the beatles, infact kurt cobain listened to the beatles and other 60s pop up until he was about 11-12 (i think thats the age) when he was loaned a led zeppelin album.

keep your ears out for these orchestral metal bands this may be a kindof comeback

[Unregistered]

I agree with jamiel but i thought i should add some other groups like jurrasic 5, talib kweli, blackalious, tribe called quest, mos def, dj shadow, brother ali, MF doom and jedi mind tricks. this is not rap its hip hop. rap is now associated with **** like 50 cent.

[mwheelerk]

What more can you say. It is on the same level as processed chicken noodle soup. The picture is good but not much substance. Although it would be hard to disagre with the 1960 - 1963 period, but from a personal standpoint my musical interests was fairly minimum at that time (little league baseball was all me) so the disco era had more of a negative impact on my pleasures in music.

[RGCriss]

Why does todays music suck...Two words "American Idol"

I can't believe the american public goes absolutly ape over this cookie cutter crap. 14 year old girls are the target audience for the record companies to hawk their "star of the hour". I think it is an RIAA plot to infuse a subliminal message to turn them into zombies thats sole purpose is to create "we love ruben" or "we love clay" signs and march upon the tower record stores as if they were really stars (let alone talented).
Freakin' William Hung gets a record deal :eek: (and an acting gig!) Man somebody drop a big one on them and maybe from the ashes some real talent will finally come forward!!!

[shokhead]

Todays music sucks in rock at least because nobody can carry a tune. Any Beatles,Beach Boys,CSNY out there?

[20to20K]

It was right around then it seemed all my favorite bands/musicians fell into the high tech trap. Over the top synthesizers, programmed drums, synth bass, it was ugly. No one was safe. Rush, Earth Wind and fire, Stevie Wonder, Doobie Brothers, I could go on...

This is when I pretty much abandoned pop/rock music altogether and did nothing but listen to jazz. A few newer bands (U2, Police, REM) where still making good music...but they were outweighed by the high tech crap...particularly on the radio.

During that period I found myself mostly listening to 70's rock and soul and 60's cool jazz.(Miles/Trane/Monk).

Some of the great bands from the 70's tried to come back to their roots in the 90's and post 2000, but could never capture that 70's magic. Steely Dan, EWF, Doobie Brothers, Rush, and Stevie Wonder come to mind.

Thank god it's all recorded and still sounds great!

[jaxvon]

Hmm, I'd have to say early 80s onward. With a few notable exceptions (such as Steely Dan and Donald Fagen), there has been a nonstop flow of crap coming out of the recording studios. Unlike the 70s where musicians were still largely in control, everything now is run my management and marketing. Though, I don't think this is the reason that the newer Steely Dan albums can't step up to the original run from the 70s.

There are a few bands around today that are okay (IMHO), like Maroon 5. Their ablum is kinda same-ish sounding, but it isn't bad.

And 20to20k, what did you think of Gaucho and Nightfly? Those were both done on programmed drums.

[cbraver]

Rap is like any other genre, a few winners, a whole lotta losers (2x, in raps case). But, 2Pac, if you listen to some of his lyrics, actually has some rather powerful messages. Nas, has a lot of the blues in his music because of his dad. And actually recently did a song with him. That said, majority of it is crap. It had it's place until 2Pac died. That's my opinion, but... I think rap as a whole died with 2pac. There is some talent left, but it's far and few ...and poorly produced.

But, in general, Rap is party music for the young, it's written and intended for young people to party with. The majority of it is not intended for listening the way we listen to music.

-Chad

[20to20K]

You sure about that Jax? I'm pretty sure (without pulling the liner notes) that Steve Gadd and Bernard Purdie are playing drums on most of Gaucho...and Donald has several different drummers on Nightfly.

I admit that both over laden with tons of very bright synthasizers and sequencing...but I'm pretty sure most of the drums are the real deal.

I know your a big SD fan so I'm gonna check the liner notes now.

Stay tuned...

Oh, but to answer your question I LOVE both albums...probably Gaucho more than Nightlfy....but not by much. Gaucho came out in 80...and it was their last CD until the mid 90's Live in America (which was awesome) and the two post millinium studio efforts which I found to be just so-so (even though they ironically won a ton of Grammys for them).

[raceskier]

I'm suprised there has been little mention of disco. I heard a great quote from Cuba Gooding Sr. (Main Ingredient) today. He called disco the musical equivalent of the Holocaust

[jaxvon]

To reference the "Complete Guide to the Music of Steely Dan" by Brian Sweet (ISBN: 0-7119-6623-0 )

Since Becker and Fagen's desire for an absolutely perfect drum track was causing them such frustration and delay, Nichols took it upon himself to design and build a drum machine. Working every spare moment, he came up with an 8-bit machine which he called Wendel which could emulate all the inflections of a human drummer. Although the computer did play quite extensively on the album, the live drummer recieves full credit in each case, with Wendel being relegated to the sidelines, under "Sequencing and Special Effects".

Now a quote from the Liner Notes from the Remastered 'Gaucho' CD:

That's when the business with the computer started. Roger Nichols had this toy--we thought of it as a toy--but one day he came to work and told us that the toy had become a man--one helluva man, in fact. A very talented man. A steady man. A man for all seasons--call him Wendel. A man who, in the absence of a usable track after a zillion tries with "read bands", could nicely simulate the most elusive elements of the basic track that we would need to bring out little song into the world, i.e., drums and maybe a simple keyboard part of some sort, and that's all. Because, once we had that--the toy, the man, the track-- we could do all the rest with little or no problemo, thank you very much. Unfortunately, at this primitive stage of the evolution of the computer and its requisite software, even the most minute event had to be programmed in the gnarly and unforgiving 8085 Assembly Language, described in its baffling hexagesimal-base numerical system, which ultimatedly became the only language Roger Nichols spoke or understood, at least for a time. As it turned out, the simplest imaginable manipulations--we are, after all, simple guys-- ended up adding perhaps 7 or 14 monts, all told, to our already Augean labors, and hundreds of thousands of dollars to our monstrously swollen budget. And so was born the era of sampled drums and sequenced music--"The Birth of the Cruel", as we now think of it. History--read it and weep.

Okay, there's another section in the Brian Sweet book talking about Wendel, the upragraded version that featured 16 bits, and its use on The Nightfly. But, that was a lot of typing I just did. So you should just trust that I'm not lying :D.

[20to20K]

Here's what I got directly from the "Gaucho" CD liner notes:

Babylon Sisters - Drums: Bernard Purdie
Hey Nineteem - Drums: Rick Maratta
Glamour Profession - Drums: Steve Gadd
Gaucho - Drums: Jeff Pocaro (RIP)
Time out of mind - Drums: Rick Morrata
My Rival - Drums: Steve Gadd
Third World Man - Drums: Steve Gadd

No where anywhere in the liner notes is any reference made to
computerized, synthasized, or programmed drums.

Here's Nightfly:

I.G.Y. - Drums: James Gadson/Jeff Pocaro
Green Flower Street - Drums: Jeff Pocaro
Ruby Baby - Drums: Jeff Pocaro/James Gadson
Maxine - Drums:Ed Green
New Frontier - Drums: Ed Green
The Nightfly - Drums: Jeff Pocaro
The Goodbye Look - Drums: Jeff Pocaro
Walk Between the Raindrops - Drums: Steve Jordan

Again no mention of drum machines anywhere. The closer here was a synth bass on ...Raindrops!

[jaxvon]

20to20k, check out my last post. I have some very telling quotes, both from a biographer and from Fagen and Becker themselves.

[jmgillespie]

I'm 20 years old and I also think that music is at a stand still right now and nothing much is good out. I listen to some rap but only when I'm driving to pick up chicks. Here's a list of some rock and hip-hop bands out right now that I listen to and think are good:

Audioslave - I love this band saw them live once and they rock. Chris Cornell from Soundgarden is the singer and the band from Rage Against The Machine. Band really jams together and Chris's voice is amazing. They sound like Soundgarden and Rage of course but also have their Zepplin moments such as "Like a Stone" very dark song if you listen to the lyrics they are influenced by a Edgar Allen Poe poem. Other good songs are "Shadow of the Sun", "Cochise", "Show me how to live", "Highway", "Hypnotizer". New cd coming in June.

3 Doors Down - New cd is awesome just came out today a lot better altogether then previous albums. A mix between Lynyrd Skynyrd and Bob Seger. Mostly medium paced songs with good lyrics and music but also have harder rockers. Good songs: "Kryptonite", "Be like that", "When I'm gone", "Away from the sun", "Here without you", "Right where I belong", "let me go", and "landing in london (featuring Bob Seger)".

Silvertide - First cd came out this year. All 19 to 20 year olds started band and 6 weeks later were opening for Aerosmith then for Van Halen where I saw them. 70's hard rock music featuring guitarist that is influenced by Halen, Page, and Slash. Lyrics are punk/rock like GNR's Appetite for destruction. good songs "ain't comin home", "Blue jeans", "you want it all", "mary jayne", "foxhole J.C.".

N.E.R.D. - Mix between hip-hop and rock what I like to call Ghetto rock or maybe better Rock and Hop. Nerd is the neptunes alter ego rock/hip hop band some of the songs off their second cd fly or die are influenced by the Beatles actually. You have to hear it to understand. good songs "things are getting better", "Provider", "baby doll", "rock star", "stay together", "she wants to move", "breakout", "wonderful place", "drill sergeant", "thrasher", "the way she dance".

Tech N9ne - Rap good production cool lyrics. Absolute power and anghellic are his their only two records but seem to have been around for longer. "industy is punks" "slacker" "keep on keepin on" "t9x" "worst enemy" "yada, yada, yada" "i'm a player" "stamina" "psycho *****" "suicide letters" "einstein".

Take a listen give me some feedback on what you've heard.

[20to20K]

But seriously,

I listened to rap as recently as about 10 years ago...I thought "A Tribe Called Quest" was a very talented and very cerrebral band. Used some obscure samples from 60's BlueNote Jazz and blended in some very smooth lyrics.
Sure, they had a decent dose of youthful bravado and sexual conquests describe in detail...but hey...that's part of the genre. I find myself listening to their stuff still today. Trips my wife out to her me go from Joni Mitchell to Miles to Bob Marley to Mozart to Tribe. But good music is good music.

During that same error I also listened to a lot of Rage Against the Machine. Again I thought that band stood out in that huge sea of metal/rap bands.
Very energetic and they sounded great...particularly the bass player. The
guitarist only knew two chords...but he played the hell out of them! Evil Empire had a few particular nice cuts.

In these types of music it's difficult to seperate the typical radio play crap with the few diamonds in the rough. I think it's potentially possible for any genre of music to exibit excellence. My journey will be complete when I prove this theory with Country and Western! :)

[Rex]

I disagree with EdR somewhat in that what emerged from the 70's classic rock were more refined offshoots that became some really great Metal groups and rock groups with much talent. You also had alot of Punk that emerged from the end of the 70's into the 80's and alternative styles. However, most of the Metal and Rock bands that existed in the late 70's and 80's were talented musicians and composers of original music. Now, what came about in the 90's was the Garage Grunge you refer to and the emergence of Rap into the mainstream. Both of which have absolutely NO TALENT and NO POSITIVE contribution to music of any generation.

[mwheelerk]

Whenever Disco existed

[Bird]

<font color='#000000'>Please, please everyone. Let's get our facts straight. Bob Dylan invented Rap music with the Subterreanean Homesick Blues.

Johnny's in the basement mixin' up some medicine
I'm on the pavement thinkin' 'bout the goverment....
...the pump don't work cause the vandals stole the handle.</font>

There's a good argument for that but I believe Gil Scott Heron's "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" is considered the first "true" rap song. Unfortunately IMO it wrecked a great "jazz" career for Gil.

[MDS]

Rappers Delight by The Sugar Hill Gang is widely recognized as the first Rap song. Today's rap is much different and alot worse...

[Duffinator]

I disagree with EdR somewhat in that what emerged from the 70's classic rock were more refined offshoots that became some really great Metal groups and rock groups with much talent. You also had alot of Punk that emerged from the end of the 70's into the 80's and alternative styles. However, most of the Metal and Rock bands that existed in the late 70's and 80's were talented musicians and composers of original music. Now, what came about in the 90's was the Garage Grunge you refer to and the emergence of Rap into the mainstream. Both of which have absolutely NO TALENT and NO POSITIVE contribution to music of any generation.The late 80's and early 90's were bad. Thank God the Grunge movement came along and woke up the music scene just like Punk did in the late 70's when Rock was bigger than life and bloated. Clearly Nirvana had no talent and the millions of American Idiots that purchased Nevermind can't tell talent when they hear it. :p Smells Like Teen Spirit single handidly woke up the American music scene with only three cords. IMO Nevermind is one of the best rock albums of all time. I try and listen to all types of music, Rap, Jazz, Classical, anything but country and am always looking for something new to perk my interest.

And what's really had my interest for almost six months now is American Idiot by Green Day. I own a couple of their earlier CD's and don't consider myself a big Green Day fan. The song American Idiot has gotten a lot of airplay along with a couple of other songs from the CD. But the more I listen to the CD the more I like it, in fact maybe my favorite CD since Nevermind. Really sharp lyrics, political of course and I don't agree with everything Billie Joe writes, and some very catchy pop tunes to match. And I really like Jesus of Suburbia, a nine minute song that I skipped over several times because it is so long. It's now my favorite song on the CD, I even heard the full nine minute version on the radio the other day. The Grammy's make some wierd choices for album of the year but American Idiot was very deserving of the honor. During his acceptance speach Billie Joe said something like "Rock n Roll can be dangerous and fun", this CD is both. Music always has it ups and downs and with American Idiot it way up for me. Anyone else like American Idiot?

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Wow! I can't believe the universal dislike of country & western music.

[Shadow_Ferret]

Wow! I can't believe the universal dislike of country & western music.
I can. ;)

[annunaki]

I hate country music. Unfortunately, my wife likes it :rolleyes: ! I have forgiven here of her sin though. :p

It is nice though that she respects that I do not like it. So it never gets played in the house while I am home. However, we have a rule, that whomever drives choses music, as they need what makes them comfortable/concentrate. So, I still have to put up with that crap... Once in a great while. :D

She still gets a heavy dose of Tool though. HAHAHAH :D

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Worst period in Rock & Roll: Christmas season 2011 - Early Spring 2012.

Eminem's music is co-opted for a line of commercials for Xiangchua (of China) automobiles, The Walt Disney Co. continues its regime of corporate global domination and buys the rights to Mozart's "The Marriage of Figaro" just so WB can't show the Buggs Bunny cartoon with Elmer Fudd getting a haircut. The top five of the Top 40 is infected with craptacular J-Pop sensation Blue Wave (Icki No Gighi), U2's Bloody Knuckles (A tribute to The Edge) is about 2 minutes too long, Whooping Funk is alright the first hundred times you hear them, but it gets old, new wave and glam rock mix to create the disgustingly commercial uNsCeNtEd, and the blatantly homosexual heavy metal Slunt barely break into the top 5 with Purple Vein

Other Music News from the future:

*BOSE opens own record label, selling CDs from its stores and MP3's from its website. Are in legal dispute attempting to buy The Beatles catalog.
*iTunes DRM update prevents burning of CDs at speeds greater than 4x.
*estate of Garth Brooks attempts to buy city of Akron, Ohio
*After Sen.Ted Nugent (Mi) is killed in a "Hunting accident", the tribute album At One with the Wild (a collection of remixes and covers) becomes the best selling Christmas box set.
*An unearthed collection of 100+ previously unheared Miles Davis recordings are discovered May 2009 in a NYC basement. Audiophiles everywhere go ape**** and Jazz enjoys a short-lived mainstream resurgence.
*Despite valient effort, Korean musician "Jae Bak" fails to make K-rap popular.
*For 6 weeks in 2006 Mtv (and MtvHD) actually show music videos in the hours between 3pm and 5:30. Videos later removed to allow for the reality show "The gauntlet"

[Duffinator]

Worst period in Rock & Roll: Christmas season 2011 - Early Spring 2012.

Eminem's music is co-opted for a line of commercials for Xiangchua (of China) automobiles, The Walt Disney Co. continues its regime of corporate global domination and buys the rights to Mozart's "The Marriage of Figaro" just so WB can't show the Buggs Bunny cartoon with Elmer Fudd getting a haircut. The top five of the Top 40 is infected with craptacular J-Pop sensation Blue Wave (Icki No Gighi), U2's Bloody Knuckles (A tribute to The Edge) is about 2 minutes too long, Whooping Funk is alright the first hundred times you hear them, but it gets old, new wave and glam rock mix to create the disgustingly commercial uNsCeNtEd, and the blatantly homosexual heavy metal Slunt barely break into the top 5 with Purple Vein

Other Music News from the future:

*BOSE opens own record label, selling CDs from its stores and MP3's from its website. Are in legal dispute attempting to buy The Beatles catalog.
*iTunes DRM update prevents burning of CDs at speeds greater than 4x.
*estate of Garth Brooks attempts to buy city of Akron, Ohio
*After Sen.Ted Nugent (Mi) is killed in a "Hunting accident", the tribute album At One with the Wild (a collection of remixes and covers) becomes the best selling Christmas box set.
*An unearthed collection of 100+ previously unheared Miles Davis recordings are discovered May 2009 in a NYC basement. Audiophiles everywhere go ape**** and Jazz enjoys a short-lived mainstream resurgence.
*Despite valient effort, Korean musician "Jae Bak" fails to make K-rap popular.
*For 6 weeks in 2006 Mtv (and MtvHD) actually show music videos in the hours between 3pm and 5:30. Videos later removed to allow for the reality show "The gauntlet"Too funny. You have waaaay too much time on your hands. Was Ted still hunting for "fresh flesh floozies'?

[WmAx]

Worst period in Rock & Roll: Christmas season 2011 - Early Spring 2012....

LMAO. You DO have too much time on your hands. :)

-Chris

[LCA]

Anyone who thinks now is the worst period in rock/pop history is not trying hard enough or looking in the right places. I can't keep up with all the great music out there. I seriously have to work at it. If I bought all the new stuff I wanted I would go broke. It's just that the cast majority of the good stuff never gets any big press or radio play.

[rschleicher]

I think you can debate forever about best and worst periods, as well as genres, but the thing that I notice is that the rate of change in popular music seems to have slowed down.

With the exception of rap and hip-hop, you can argue that most of the other forms/genres of rock and pop music emerged at least in some prototypical form between the last half of the 50's and the 60's. Just looking at the decade of the 60's, you went from 50's style rock and roll, to early 60's do-wop, crooners like Pat Boone and Franki Valli, the whole British invasion, proto-hard rock and even proto-punk (e.g. the rawer Kinks and Yardbirds songs), acid rock, the birth of metal, etc.

You can also argue that musicians don't really create anything too new after they are past their late 20's, even though they can still be creative in an evolutionary sense.

By the same token, music listeners tend to like what they liked during their teens and twenties, and mostly want to hear more of the same from then on, or at least things that have a stylistic root in what they grew up with.

[LCA]

With the exception of rap and hip-hop, you can argue that most of the other forms/genres of rock and pop music emerged at least in some prototypical form between the last half of the 50's and the 60's..

This is mostly true, I would agree, but there are a couple genres like low-fi (Pavement), Intelligent Dance Music (IDM) and electronica (Steroelab) that came about later. Ther are also artists like Radiohead that combine several genres to create something totally new that doesn't really fall into one category.

By the same token, music listeners tend to like what they liked during their teens and twenties, and mostly want to hear more of the same from then on, or at least things that have a stylistic root in what they grew up with.

This is unfortunate but also mostly true. I am 35 and my musical tastes continue to expand. I don't think my listening ear was really honed until my late 20's. My thirst for new music has never been stronger.