Is the PB12 worth the $$ over the PB10?

[Scott Andrew]

So for the actual price to my door (Canada) the SVS PB12-ISD will be about $200 (Canadian) more then the SVS PB10-ISD. Now after reading everything I know the PB10 is an amazing sub so I would assume the PB12 is even better but is it worth the extra $200??

The room is 14 x 14 (50% electronic music, 50% movies)

Reciever is Pioneer 1014
Front towers are B&W DM604-S3
Centre is B&W LCR600-S3
Rear surrounds are B&W DM602-S3

[zumbo]

I would think the 10 would complement the B&W's the best. IMO, 10's are tighter and more accurate. OTOH, 12's are more boomy and will complement your electronic tunes. Just visit a local audio shop & see the difference in the sound of a 10 & 12 from a reputable brand to get a general idea of the characteristic of each.

My preference.
1) 2 x 10"
2) 1 x 12"
3) 1 x 10"

I have one 12". Couldn't swing the cost of two 10's.

[jaxvon]

In that size of a room I think the PB12 would be insane overkill. Stick with the PB-10.

[scotty11]

I think the 10 would be better for 50% music.
i just got the ISD/2 and it is just massive,not just the performance but physically massive.

there is no hiding a sub like this.if you use it as an end table fine.but for those whose wives may not be as enthustiatic about a sub stick with the 10" single.

i cannot imagine any of SVS's subs being low on "punch".

scott

[Scott Andrew]

Many people have told me that if I am listening to at least 50% of electronic music then Maybe the HSU STF-3 or STF-2 is probably better. My PRIORITY or main goal is to get as close to the sound you would get at a nightclub but on a much smaller scale... the home theater bass is secondary... any opinions?

[korgoth]

people tend to like the hsu's for music. stf-2 or stf3 would probobly work well.

most people would agree that with any svs or hsu sub, the extra money to get the bigger sub is usually worth it, unless you are already at reference levels

i dont think a 12'' would be overkill, 14x14 is a decent amount of space, its better to have a little more, than have too little.

[Sheep]

A PB-12 in a 14x14 room??!?! You wouldn't be able to breathe!
Stick with a PB-10. I have an AS-P400 ina 16x12 room and I feel its plenty (for most, I have bigger plans though ;) ). I would kill for a PB-10 in this room, 2 would be........awwwwrrrrgrgrr *drools*

It will definately be enough.

[korgoth]

16x12 is pretty much the same as 14x14..
you think 2 pb10s is good but one pb12 is overkill??

[BTex]

I have the PB12 in a room of your size and maybe it's overkill.
but I'M LOVINOVERKILL!
j/k
It's a powerful sub for the room but isn't too much. It is huge tho and there aren't many places for it in a 14x14 room. So mine is an end table. Works great, my wife had no problem with it. first thing she did was place her laptop on it. It is great for movies and music imo.
It would be better not so close to my couch since it can knock you out of you seat but I live with it. ;)

[Sheep]

16x12 is pretty much the same as 14x14..
you think 2 pb10s is good but one pb12 is overkill??

I say 2 and drooled after...;)

But seriously, I would have 2 for the imaging, extra headroom etc etc.

SheepStar

[MacManNM]

I would think the 10 would complement the B&W's the best. IMO, 10's are tighter and more accurate. OTOH, 12's are more boomy and will complement your electronic tunes. Just visit a local audio shop & see the difference in the sound of a 10 & 12 from a reputable brand to get a general idea of the characteristic of each.

My preference.
1) 2 x 10"
2) 1 x 12"
3) 1 x 10"

I have one 12". Couldn't swing the cost of two 10's.

Those statements are way out of line. Driver size has nothing to do with a sub being boomy, or bad sounding. It is all about design, and the quality of components used.

The only difference in sonic quality between the 10 and 12 SV units are that the PB10 extendsalmost flat to 100Hz, whereas the 12 (depending on how you tune it) is only flat out to ~45Hz or so. The 12 plays deeper, and louder than the 10, no question about it.

Your Front mains go down to 39Hz, so you could get away with either if you wish. Going with the 12 you may have a bit of a hole between 50-80Hz depending on your bass management settings, placement, and room conditions. This can be cured when you set it up.

If you are a Bass nut, and like your material played loud, then go with the 12, if you are pretty much normal, go with the 10. The 10 should almost be able to reach reference levels in that room.

[Scott Andrew]

So I will most likely be going with the 12 now, based on all this info because I LOVE bass. You say I might have a hole between 50-80 Hz, but wouldn't the B&W 604's take care of that? Sorry but I'm a bit of a rookie in the Hz area...

Thanks


Those statements are way out of line. Driver size has nothing to do with a sub being boomy, or bad sounding. It is all about design, and the quality of components used.

The only difference in sonic quality between the 10 and 12 SV units are that the PB10 extendsalmost flat to 100Hz, whereas the 12 (depending on how you tune it) is only flat out to ~45Hz or so. The 12 plays deeper, and louder than the 10, no question about it.

Your Front mains go down to 39Hz, so you could get away with either if you wish. Going with the 12 you may have a bit of a hole between 50-80Hz depending on your bass management settings, placement, and room conditions. This can be cured when you set it up.

If you are a Bass nut, and like your material played loud, then go with the 12, if you are pretty much normal, go with the 10. The 10 should almost be able to reach reference levels in that room.

[scotty11]

my room is 18 x 30 and i just got the PB12/ISD2
the amount of low end is unbelievable
i dont think ill ever use 1/2 the potential of this sub.
it is just friggin insane

i do believe the 12"single would have been adequate.

i was alone in the house yestarday and had a dvd on.the sub is in the basement.when i was on the 2nd floor i could feel the bass rattling the walls.

like i said before

i cant see any of the SVS subs being too small for the average room

[Sheep]

I would think the 10 would complement the B&W's the best. IMO, 10's are tighter and more accurate. OTOH, 12's are more boomy and will complement your electronic tunes. Just visit a local audio shop & see the difference in the sound of a 10 & 12 from a reputable brand to get a general idea of the characteristic of each.

My preference.
1) 2 x 10"
2) 1 x 12"
3) 1 x 10"

I have one 12". Couldn't swing the cost of two 10's.

I can't believe I missed this.

I agree with Mac.

The size of the driver has nothing to do with those stated characteristics. The size(and design) will determine the freq. extension, but its plain lazy to say 10's are boomier then 12's.

Long throw woofers allow small size drivers to play deeper notes because they throw far, far enough to move more air. If poorly designed, they will have extra distortion, and group delay because of the longer throw.

On the other hand, take a look at the DD10. Its a long throw 10inch woofer and its distortion is below 5% at 20Hz. All about design.

As far as "tighness" it also depends on the driver, amp and box.

Driver - Needs a big magnet to move it for the extra power to push the harder spider, which is provided by the amp.

Box - Sealed designs tend to control cone movement more then ported designs because of the trapped air behind the driver. The air resists the driver from moving out, and in. This gives the driver a good transicient(sp) response; the ability to start and stop fast(some refer to it as speed). Also, because the driver resists moving in and out, it can handle more power.

Amp - The amps in sealed subs have to put out more power to equal the same dB level of a similar ported design, because the cone is resisted by the trapped air. This is why the Velodyne SPL series boasts 1000WRMS (that and the extremely stiff drivers)

There are many factors to look at, so lets try to keep the blanket statements to a minimum. :) no hard feelings

SheepStar

[j_garcia]

I listen to a lot of electronic music and one PB-10 is already doing a nice job in a 19x20 room. The 12 does offer a bit more rumble down low, but not too much more output than the PB-10. If you think you might need more output, you'll need to look at something like the PB-12 plus or possibly even a 25-31PCi or PC Plus. In a room that size, I would say one 10 or 12 would be plenty.

[zumbo]

The size of the driver has nothing to do with those stated characteristics. The size(and design) will determine the freq. extension, but its plain lazy to say 10's are boomier then 12's.


I would think the 10 would complement the B&W's the best. IMO, 10's are tighter and more accurate. OTOH, 12's are more boomy and will complement your electronic tunes.


As you can see, I said 12's are bommier than 10's. I am speaking of speakers from the same manufacturer. If he wants night club bass, then he will get the most BOOM from the 12 IMO. He will get even more BOOM from two 10's. And, even more BOOM from 2 12's. Sorry fellas, I'm not here to argue. I was just giving my opinion. It is responses like this that kept me away from this forum for so long.

Oh, and a ported design will boom more than a sealed. I prefer a sealed. But, I have a ported. Go figure. Not sure about down firing compared to front firing.

[zumbo]

I would think the 10 would complement the B&W's the best. IMO, 10's are tighter and more accurate. OTOH, 12's are more boomy and will complement your electronic tunes.

Those statements are way out of line. Driver size has nothing to do with a sub being boomy, or bad sounding. It is all about design, and the quality of components used.

Now, to me, the boom that you feel is air movement(sound wave). The larger driver will move more air. Also, I am speaking of subs from the same company. So, the larger driver will also have more power to move that air. More than one driver increases this movement. It's all pretty easy to figure out.

You see, years ago when I was into car audio I downsized from two Kicker comp 12's to one Solo-Baric. The Solo-Baric was a better design and seemed to produce the effect of two subs. But, 12" is not 24". No how, No way. Two were simply better than one. Then came the new idea to run three 10's. Well, 30" is better than 24". Like I said, it's all pretty simple. More inches, more pleasure, so long as you have the power to thrust those inches.

[Sheep]

As you can see, I said 12's are bommier than 10's. I am speaking of speakers from the same manufacturer. If he wants night club bass, then he will get the most BOOM from the 12 IMO. He will get even more BOOM from two 10's. And, even more BOOM from 2 12's. Sorry fellas, I'm not here to argue. I was just giving my opinion. It is responses like this that kept me away from this forum for so long.

Oh, and a ported design will boom more than a sealed. I prefer a sealed. But, I have a ported. Go figure. Not sure about down firing compared to front firing.

But they aren't. The driver has to move less to push the same amount of air as a 10inch cone, thusly reducing THD, GD, etc etc.

A 10 has more THD then a 12, but you can't make a blanket statement like "all 10's are boomy" or 12's or whatever your said.

If by "boom", you mean SPL's, then say SPL's. Boom means loads of THD and sloppy bass. Your mixing up your terms.

If these are the posts you going to make, I suggest you take more time off from this place, as your not being very helpful.

SheepStar

[zumbo]

If these are the posts you going to make, I suggest you take more time off from this place, as your not being very helpful.SheepStar

I think I will. My wife don't care too much for me spending much time on here anyway. I do enjoy it from time to time. I try not to use big terms such as SPL, THD, and such. Most people asking for advise such as this are not familar with those terms. I try to break it down to terms such as I used.

A 10 has more THD then a 12.

But I am curious as to how a 10" speaker has more distortion than a 12"?:confused: :rolleyes: Maybe you can post some specs for me. I bet you are thinking of amps.

I still stand by my first answer. The 10 will be more suited for the B&W's. And a wall of 12's will make your house a disco circus! It's all in what you want.

My wife is calling. Off to better things.

[j_garcia]

It really depends on the overall design of the sub. A well designed 12" can sound amazing. IMO, 12" is just about right for most situations. The PB-10 is a bit of an exception because it is a surprising sub for the price. A 12 moves more air due to greater surface area, something a 10 just can't make up for no matter what. Given two similar drivers, a 10 should sound cleaner in the upper midrange but not do as well down low.

[Sheep]

I think I will. My wife don't care too much for me spending much time on here anyway. I do enjoy it from time to time. I try not to use big terms such as SPL, THD, and such. Most people asking for advise such as this are not familar with those terms. I try to break it down to terms such as I used.



But I am curious as to how a 10" speaker has more distortion than a 12"?:confused: :rolleyes: Maybe you can post some specs for me. I bet you are thinking of amps.

I still stand by my first answer. The 10 will be more suited for the B&W's. And a wall of 12's will make your house a disco circus! It's all in what you want.

My wife is calling. Off to better things.


Heres your proof.

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=50&rid=0&SQ=0

Look at all the subwoofers tested. Then, look at the THD for the different size cones. You'll notice that the larger cones have less THD in the lows then smaller cones. Also, try not to look at the servo controlled ones, as they have the best distortion figures of any of the subwoofers. Just look at non servo subs.

SheepStar

[zumbo]

It really depends on the overall design of the sub. A well designed 12" can sound amazing. IMO, 12" is just about right for most situations. The PB-10 is a bit of an exception because it is a surprising sub for the price. A 12 moves more air due to greater surface area, something a 10 just can't make up for no matter what. Given two similar drivers, a 10 should sound cleaner in the upper midrange but not do as well down low.

;) You Bet.

[zumbo]

Heres your proof.

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=50&rid=0&SQ=0

Look at all the subwoofers tested. Then, look at the THD for the different size cones. You'll notice that the larger cones have less THD in the lows then smaller cones. Also, try not to look at the servo controlled ones, as they have the best distortion figures of any of the subwoofers. Just look at non servo subs.

SheepStar

Like I said, you are thinking of amps, not subs. Time to study. And while you are learning, practice your communication skills. You came off a little rude. No hard feelings.:)

[Sheep]

Like I said, you are thinking of amps, not subs. Time to study. And while you are learning, practice your communication skills. You came off a little rude. No hard feelings.:)

Drivers make THD, just like amps. And they make alot more THD then amps.

Driver THD from a sub, sounds "boomy" while amp THD is harsh.

As for rude, your the one who said "posts like this are the reason why I don't come here very often."

If you want to go that route, fine. I'm not going to follow. I just wanted you to know your mistake, so it can be corrected.

SheepStar

[zumbo]

I have not yet seen the mistake you are speaking of. I believe all of my statements to be correct thus far. Looks as though j_garcia agrees with me somewhat, except for the preference. And that is why I tried to explain the characteristics somewhat, using the term "boomy". To give a reason as to why I prefer the sound of a 10" over a 12". Two, to be exact. They tend to have a tighter, punchier sound.

[zumbo]

And I believe drivers reproduce THD that the amp makes. I can see how a 12" would reproduce more THD connected to an identical amp as a 10". The same way it will produce more BOOM, move more air. If you take a raw driver and place it on the floor, how can it produce THD? It can't. It reproduces it once it is connected to a source.

[Sheep]

"A 12 moves more air due to greater surface area, something a 10 just can't make up for no matter what. Given two similar drivers, a 10 should sound cleaner in the upper midrange but not do as well down low"

First, he doesn't agree with you (sorry if it sounds like I'm speaking for him)

Upper midrange is 50Hz-up.

ALL subs that are decent have low THD 50Hz up.

Now, A 12inch driver has to move less to create the same bass output of a similar 10. Thusly, the driver isn't moving as much, less THD, less GD. NO if ands or buts.

As for the amp being the difference, take a look at these SERVO controlled subs, they use the same amp.

DD15:
http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=14733&start=0&rid=0&SQ=0

DD18:
http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=13377&start=0&rid=0&SQ=0

The DD18 has less THD down low, but they use the same amp. Under your train of thought, they should have the same THD, because the amp is the same, but they don't. Does this mean the driver makes a difference? Yes.

No hard feelings :)

SheepStar

[zumbo]

I don't seem to understand why your THD discussion has anything to do with the terms I used to describe why I prefer the 10" sub. Why does that bother you? The explination that j_garcia gave is the EXACT reason I prefer the sound of a 10" driver. Your reasoning can not, and will not change what my ears prefer.

No hard feelings.

[zumbo]

Did you know that Bose uses a 5 & 1/4" sub.:eek:

[Sheep]

Did you know that Bose uses a 5 & 1/4" sub.:eek:

Yes, its scary.

Some of them have 3 drivers in each. There new powered units sound alright, but they have nothing below 40Hz, there powered midbass modules.

The Only reason why I have a problem with your statement is because you said Boomy. THD=Boom. Whether its amp or driver, its boom. So if you want to say the sub is louder, say SPL, or louder. You might confuse someone because alot of people relate Boom with THD.

Friends? :)

SheepStar

[zumbo]

Friends.:cool:

[Matt34]

Too cute:D :D

[mulester7]

.....kinda' makes you think about puppies, huh?.......

[Sheep]

.....kinda' makes you think about puppies, huh?.......

Not at the beginning of the stand off ;)

SheepStar

[mulester7]

Not at the beginning of the stand off ;)

SheepStar.....Sheep, my good man, we're sitting around a table on the patio sipping coffee....I'd say we don't want stand-offs, actually....just questions, answers, and comments, as hopefully we are in the attitude of learning....and, enjoying ourselves, with some humor mixed in....good time to be had that way, I think....attitude is everything.....

[Sheep]

.....Sheep, my good man, we're sitting around a table on the patio sipping coffee....I'd say we don't want stand-offs, actually....just questions, answers, and comments, as hopefully we are in the attitude of learning....and, enjoying ourselves, with some humor mixed in....good time to be had that way, I think....attitude is everything.....

I don't think it got ugly, or I've seen worse.....privateer....

SheepStar

[silversurfer]

More food for thought:

Bigger cones have more mass which make them harder to start and stop.

[Sheep]

More food for thought:

Bigger cones have more mass which make them harder to start and stop.

Generally have more power too though. ;)

Besides, My links clearly showed a difference in THD between a 15 and 18, and the 18 won.

SheepStar

[silversurfer]

yeah...but your links don't show anything about transient response.

and when you talk about more power, you are talking about the amp and magnet.

It is not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

[Sheep]

yeah...but your links don't show anything about transient response.

and when you talk about more power, you are talking about the amp and magnet.

It is not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

How can I make it more? Its the same everything cept box size and driver size...:confused:

All the materials are the same.

I thought TR showed up in THD. But, I think the DD's are fairly good when its comes to that.

Besides, that mass difference is soo small bringing it up is a moot point. Definately between a 15 and 18. Maybe audible with 10 and 18.


SheepStar

[silversurfer]

Mass differences too small? Do you know what T/S parameters are?

You are very much over simplifying the matter.

Like I posted before, you have NO transient response data. Also, there are different types of distortion, not just the measurements you show.

Transient response is the speed in which the cone can change direction in regards to the signal.

[Sheep]

Well, those links have FR, THD sum of all harmonics, THD by component, GD, and power compression.

If anything, TR will show up in GD no? Also, TR is related to the power of amp and size of magnet.

Your going to look me in the eye and say the DD18 doesn't have enough power or a large enough magnet to have decent TR? :)

At any rate, I smell another stand off. Shall we continue over PM's like last time? ;)

SheepStar

[silversurfer]

The links are for the whole sub...not just the driver.

I will look you in the eye and say it is not a simple matter of the bigger driver being better in all aspects.

Stand off it is, which most often means it is not a clear cut situation, which is what I am trying to convey. :)

[j_garcia]

Sorry, jumping in here after the fact a bit, but I'd look you in the eye and say a 18" won't have the ability to perform as well as a 10" in the lower midrange. As you go up in cone size, the bottom gets better and the top gets worse (generic, not every case; depends on design). That's why I say a decent speaker that allows you to use a lower x-over is usually better. A speaker that can cover low enough to use at least a 80Hz x-over. When you step to a decent 12", a 60Hz x-over or lower might be better (and mains that can handle it as well), etc... The driver should be tailored to the range it is trying to produce, and as you widen the range the driver has to cover, the less capable it will be, IMO.

[zumbo]

Sorry, jumping in here after the fact a bit, but I'd look you in the eye and say a 18" won't have the ability to perform as well as a 10" in the lower midrange. As you go up in cone size, the bottom gets better and the top gets worse (generic, not every case; depends on design). That's why I say a decent speaker that allows you to use a lower x-over is usually better. A speaker that can cover low enough to use at least a 80Hz x-over. When you step to a decent 12", a 60Hz x-over or lower might be better (and mains that can handle it as well), etc... The driver should be tailored to the range it is trying to produce, and as you widen the range the driver has to cover, the less capable it will be, IMO.

:) :)
And this is even more of the reason I would think the 10" would be better suited for the B&W's. Their low mid is weak. They are one of my favorite brands, however, they could use some help around 70Hz. I have a 12", and it certainly prefers to be crossed @ 60Hz.

[MacManNM]

Mass differences too small? Do you know what T/S parameters are?

You are very much over simplifying the matter.

Like I posted before, you have NO transient response data. Also, there are different types of distortion, not just the measurements you show.

Transient response is the speed in which the cone can change direction in regards to the signal.


Transient response is not dependent on cone size/mass only. It is a combination of motor strength, motor linearity, and electrical response. A 200 inch woofer can have the exact same transient response as a 10 inch unit. One can not make statements that a 10 is better than a 12, or vice versa. Creating pressure makes sound, no matter what size driver is used. The more pressure, the more sound. If a 10 and a 12 inch driver are moved the same amount and the same speed in free air, the the 12 will create more sound, due to the larger surface area. For the 10 to equal it, it must have a greater xmax. Usually, as you increase the xmax of a driver it looses linearity and creates higher distortion. Therefore for most cheaper sub designs when comparing a 10 to a 12, the 12 will have less distortion, and sound a bit better.

About a few of the previous posts:

All drivers have distortion, they are not just reproducing the distortion inherent to the electronics, they are creating it. All analog devices have distortion. Anytime you convert electrical energy to mechanical movement there are losses, heat is generated. This heat changes the electrical characteristics of the motor in a speaker, thus the TS paramaters change. Now the box the driver is in doesnt change.... see what I'm getting at here!