Orion progress

[Rip Van Woofer]

Finally getting there...

http://www.bruce.coppola.name/audio/orionspeak.html

Hopefully done in a couple of weeks. But then, I've been saying that for a couple of months!

For those not familiar with the Orion speakers, see http://www.linkwitzlab.com

If everything I've read about them is true, they'll be the speakers I take with me to the nursing home. :)

[Mudcat]

Dude,

That beard is getting a little frosty. :D

[Sheep]

Good stuff,

Can wait to see them finished.

SheepStar

[Rip Van Woofer]

Dude,

That beard is getting a little frosty. :D

It's just, uh, sawdust...

[Mudcat]

At least you don't have that nasty boombox duct taped to your shoulder;)

Oh yeah, the speakers look great.

[edwelly]

Thanks for the links - those sure do look like some awesome speakers. I wonder how they would sound with a passive crossover and a 2 channel amp?

[Rip Van Woofer]

FINISHED AT LAST! My Christmas present to myself:

http://www.bruce.coppola.name/audio/audio%20images/orion_pictures/orion_nogrille.jpg

Perhaps I will post a full review later. For now, here is a brief summary of my initial subjective impressions:

http://www.bruce.coppola.name/audio/audio%20images/orion_pictures/dazed.jpg

They really are too big for my den. So...on to building the listening/HT room in the basement!

[Sheep]

B E Autiful.

I am in envy!

SheepStar

[jeffsg4mac]

Sweet Bruce, Nice job. Let us know how they sound. I would like to know what the bass is like on that design.

[annunaki]

The speakers look excellent Rip!

No enclosures, open baffle, interesting.

[Sheep]

The speakers look excellent Rip!

No enclosures, open baffle, interesting.

The woofers have an enclosure. (not the mid and tweet)

SheepStar

[Tomorrow]

I...I...I've never seen the retro look appear so...22nd century. :)

Gorgeous! I'll take a pair. ;)

[goodman]

Beautiful work, but too large to take to the home with you.

[Rip Van Woofer]

Correction, Sheep: The woofers are open in back.

Bass? You want bass? Linkwitz's specs say only 6dB down (anechoic) at 20hZ. I can tell you that the lowest organ pedal tones and bass drum thwacks are there, baby! No sub is needed for music. HT might be a different matter.

As with my earlier small dipoles, the bass is not boomy but tight and natural.

Before moving them to my tiny den I tested them in our living room. Amazing soundstaging without being exaggerated. Huge unrestricted dynamics on loud peaks. Very little change in frequency balance as you walked around the room due to wide dispersion and flat power response. Even sitting a few feet off center when my neighbor came over to check them out the imaging was good with a still discernable center image.

In my den with a *very* nearfield listening position the soundstage is still wide and deep but without the all-enveloping ambience. Bass is less even but still good. The overall tonal balance is transparent and smooth.

[Sheep]

Correction, Sheep: The woofers are open in back.


Well, I sure am off my game today.

I thought they were closed. 20Hz anechoic is amazing for IB.

But, do they perform that well with you?

SheepStar

[WmAx]

Bass? You want bass? Linkwitz's specs say only 6dB down (anechoic) at 20hZ.

That's because they are boosted/equalized in the low frequencies by the active crossover system/circuits.

-Chris

[WmAx]

FINISHED AT LAST! My Christmas present to myself:

http://www.bruce.coppola.name/audio/audio%20images/orion_pictures/orion_nogrille.jpg

Perhaps I will post a full review later. For now, here is a brief summary of my initial subjective impressions:

http://www.bruce.coppola.name/audio/audio%20images/orion_pictures/dazed.jpg

They really are too big for my den. So...on to building the listening/HT room in the basement!

The only problem with speakers of this [Linkwitz] extraordinary design, is that you'll find almost everything else(regardless of price) to sound like garbage in comparison. :)

-Chris

[Rob Babcock]

Wow, nice work! They look very professional. Your woodworking skills (and patience levels) are obviously very good.

[Rip Van Woofer]

That's because they are boosted/equalized in the low frequencies by the active crossover system/circuits.

-Chris

Yep, and the surrounds of the Peerless XLS woofers look like a black rubber garden hose slit in half lengthwise! :)

[STRONGBADF1]

Very nice Rip!

I love the swirl brushed face plate.

Someday I say...someday...

SBF1

[Buckle-meister]

FINISHED AT LAST!...
http://www.bruce.coppola.name/audio/audio%20images/orion_pictures/orion_nogrille.jpg

Uh, Mr Woofer? I think you've fixed the bottom driver on back to front. :rolleyes:

They're a fine looking pair of speakers, but how do they sound, and what's the thinking behind not having an enclosed cabinet like 99.9% of all other speakers?

[jaxvon]

Uh, Mr Woofer? I think you've fixed the bottom driver on back to front. :rolleyes:

They're a fine looking pair of speakers, but how do they sound, and what's the thinking behind not having an enclosed cabinet like 99.9% of all other speakers?

No, that's the correct configuration. The idea of having no enclosure is to create a dipole speaker. Done correctly, you can create an incredibly deep and wide soundstage that's hard to achieve with conventional designs.

I stopped by Bruce's place for a couple of hours of listening, and I must say, they're some of the best speakers I've listened to. The realism, dynamics, tonal balance, and really just everything about them was great.

[Buckle-meister]

No, that's the correct configuration.

Hahaha! Oh Jaxvon, you're such a jem! :D

[Rip Van Woofer]

They're a fine looking pair of speakers, but how do they sound...

Refer to "brief summary of initial subjective impressions" above. Basically, they're <b>at least</b> the equal of any other speaker I have ever heard, regardless of price. Not that I've heard most of the megabuck speakers out there but I've heard a few very highly regarded ones. Name the criterion: bass, clean midrange and highs, general transparency/neutrality, soundstaging...they excel in all. My room is now, by far, the major constraint on my system.

...and what's the thinking behind not having an enclosed cabinet like 99.9% of all other speakers?

Saves money on MDF. :p

Also, that's how you make a dipole speaker. (EDIT: Think of it as a Magnepan, only with cones instead of panels or ribbons.) One reason for going dipole is subjectively more natural sounding bass. Linkwitz goes into exhaustive detail on how that works and why he prefers dipoles on his site. Pulling it off requires very close attention to the baffle and sidewall dimensions, plus tailored EQ to compensate for the bass rolloff that would otherwise occur with an open baffle. In turn, that requires bass drivers with a lot of excursion and low distortion.

And the push-pull woofer mounting is to cancel distortion due to the naturally assymetric output of a cone driver due to the basket and magnet structure. (The guy thinks of everything!) They're wired out of phase so they will still move "in phase": in other words, toward or away from the listener together.

I've since added a grillecloth to the bottom section so no one else will be alarmed by the "mistake". ;)

There's a source in Europe for precut kits and complete speakers. Now that you've got your room sorted you need another project, right? :D

[Buckle-meister]

...There's a source in Europe for precut kits and complete speakers. Now that you've got your room sorted you need another project, right?

Not quite. My room's not finished yet, and in any event this will not be the last I stay in.

Without really knowing anything about your speakers, I get the impression that room acoustics would be even more important for an 'open' design like those speakers than 'normal' speakers. Would this be true?

[Rip Van Woofer]

Without really knowing anything about your speakers, I get the impression that room acoustics would be even more important for an 'open' design like those speakers than 'normal' speakers. Would this be true?

Oddly, no. Linkwitz says that a "normal, live" room is well suited to them. However, it is mandatory that they are well away from the rear (behind the speaker) and side walls. In particular, if they're too close to the rear wall the bass is severely limited. My experience so far confirms this. That's pretty much true of all open baffle dipoles.

If anything, I think you'd want the room, while live, to be as diffusive as possible. That's the approach I'm going to take with my room project. Linkwitz says the rear wall, in particular, should be somewhat diffusive. All the crap I have in my room adds diffusion...maybe. (Those aren't piles of junk, honey. They're acoutical treatment!)

In spite of my current room being too small and having little treatment, most of their virtues come through. Small rooms limit most speakers anyway, IMO.

(Hey, this is post #1000!! Do I get a prize?)

[Buckle-meister]

In spite of my current room being too small and having little treatment, most of their virtues come through.

Only you can say for sure, but did you hear your speakers in a properly treated room before you bought and built them? I thought my speakers sounded amazimg in the shop, and pretty good in the flat, but I've never heard any speakers match the sound quality now. I think you'll find an incredible improvement once you treat your room. :)

Small rooms limit most speakers anyway, IMO.

(sigh) Yes, this I'd have to agree with. Even though my sound is fabulous now, I'd bet any amount of money that my speakers would truly sing in a bigger room. One day...

(Hey, this is post #1000!! Do I get a prize?)

Not from me you don't. :D

[Rip Van Woofer]

Only you can say for sure, but did you hear your speakers in a properly treated room before you bought and built them?...I think you'll find an incredible improvement once you treat your room. :)

No. I built his smaller two-way "prototype" dipoles to check out the concept and was impressed in my den "as is". Once I decided to build the Orions I knew that building a proper, larger room for them was inevitable. That's the next step. I even have preliminary drawings posted on my site.

This is the season for home remodeling expos. I'm going to one today to scope out products and ideas for my basement media room project!

I hope to begin building this Spring.

We're going to India in a few weeks (any Audioholics in or around Mysore?). I might even find some decorative textiles and objects there for the project!

[WmAx]

Only you can say for sure, but did you hear your speakers in a properly treated room before you bought and built them?

The Orion is engineered to have an extremely linear power response[while not as linear as an omnipolar system, notably in the upper treble region, the Orion is far more linear than most hi-fi speaker systems]. By dampening the 1st reflections, you will kill the realistic ambience and diffusive realsim on large scale music such as orchestral, etc.. It should be noted, that in order to use the reflections in a productive way, one needs at least 4' from the rear wall to space them out, and at least 2'-3' from the side walls, and the environment needs to be reasonably symmetrical so that that the side and rear reflections are equal in delay time when arriving at the listening position. Some very mild diffusion is the most that should be done to the 1st reflections on such a speaker, if one wants to preserve the realistic effect. Of course, reasonable diffusion/absorbtion should be used in the rest of the room to prevent excessive echo, but one needs to be very careful at the primary phantom source points. One may still prefer a 'nearfield' clarity and kill the 1st reflections anyways, but this is a preference, and you can not retain the realistic ambient diffusion and the nearfield-like clarity at the same time with a standard stereo recording on a stereo speaker pair.

-Chris

[Buckle-meister]

I get the impression that room acoustics would be even more important for an 'open' design like those speakers than 'normal' speakers. Would this be true?

Oddly, no...

I'm not criticising here, but why then don't we see far more 'open' designs on the market? Is it because of looks? Or because 'open' designed speakers seem to require greater placement from a rear wall than 'normal' speakers? Something else?

[jaxvon]

I'm not criticising here, but why then don't we see far more 'open' designs on the market? Is it because of looks? Or because 'open' designed speakers seem to require greater placement from a rear wall than 'normal' speakers? Something else?

"Open" speakers like the Orion require a great deal of equalization built in to have a flat response. I believe that this kind of equalization is really "do-able" with an active crossover, which necessitates separate amplifiers for each driver.

[Rip Van Woofer]

Jax is right. And since an open box with its needed EQ nearly guarantees the need for a fully active bi- or tri-amped system there's the market resistance to active speakers to consider.

However, I think the old Carver Amazing speakers were open baffle and passsive. But the woofer drivers were specially designed for Carver, I think, and Carver also managed the baffle width and depth very carefully to mate with those special drivers for the desired response. Tricky engineering!

Being a DIY design, special drivers were out of the question for the Orion.

Of course, planar speakers like Maggies and the old Apogees are open baffle dipoles, too.

Linkwitz has links on his site to a couple of other commercial open baffle dynamic (cone) speakers. One is a new model by Jamo, and another is a high end line (with glass cabinets!) from Sweden, I think.

EDIT: Here's the Jamo "Reference 909": http://www.jamo.com/Default.aspx?ID=2250&M=Shop&PID=5791&ProductID=17625

Gradient also makes (or made?) open baffle dynamic speakers.

Hmm, can't find the link for the glass dipoles....

[jaxvon]

Here's the link to the glass dipoles:

http://www.acoustic-reality.com/ (click the link in the product menu for "Butterfly")

I'm seeing a move by some companies to active systems and I really like the direction it's going in. Phase Technology is coming out with a new system called dARTS where all the crossovers and processing is done in the digital domain, directly off the source. Although some of the speakers do not have the amplification in the cabinet, they speakers are bi/tri-amped with the digital active crossover.

[Rip Van Woofer]

Here's the link to the glass dipoles:

http://www.acoustic-reality.com/ (click the link in the product menu for "Butterfly")

I've seen that one too but, nope, that's not the one I was talking about. It uses cone drivers -- SEAS Milleniums like the Orions.