Please Help Me! :)

I want to buy a new receiver and would love some input. It will be for a small living room in a San Francisco apartment. I'm looking for a whole new system with great sound (with respect to neighbors). The receiver will also be hooked up to Pioneer CDJ-800s (CD Turntables).

I was considering the Yamaha RX-V1500 ($560), Yamaha RX-V2500 ($689), Denon AVR-2805 ($380), Denon AVR-3805 ($785), and finally the Pioneer VSX-1015 ($425). The system will mainly be used for music, probably 80% (music), 20% (movies). Please give me some feedback. Or should I look into other receiver options (HK, Outlaw).

I would love speaker input as well. I'm considering the Aperion 422s system for $800, the Mordaunt-Short Avant Premiere MS300 system for $450 (price without sub), and the Axiom system for $1300+. This site gave the Mordaunt-Short Avant system the slight edge.

Is it worth waiting for the Yamaha RX-V1600, Yamaha RX-V2500, or the Denon AVR-3806?

Thoughts on CD players? Is SACD important now? It doesn't seem many CDs come out in that format.


in SF

Thanks!

David

I'm a believer in selecting a receiver on the basis of price, power, build quality, features, connectivity, ease of use and aesthetics. All of the receivers you listed are so flat in their response that it would be difficult at best to discern differences in sound quality, IMO.

Whether or not you wait for the release of new products is really your call -- based on whether or not they have features, connectivity or some other attribute that their current counterparts do not have.

From the prices you listed, in all likelihood you've been looking at online unauthorized dealers. You should be aware, if not already, that you'll not get a factory warranty from unauthorized dealers. Some folks don't have a problem with that and have been satisfied with their purchases from unauthorized e-tailers. Others have had very bad experiences, e.g., receiving used, damaged or counterfeit units.

I haven't heard any of the speakers you listed but don't recall reading anything negative about them.

Don't know enough about SACD to give you good advice. I can say that there may not be a lot of material out there now in that format but things can change pretty rapidly in the AV world.

A very good receiver for the money is a Marantz 8400. Good power, current and easy to use. Great all around value.

Thanks for your help.

Pioneer Elite

Also look at the pioneer elite 54tx I'm using the 53TX and it is a huge step up from my Marantz SR-7000 which shocked me

Don't forget, whatever you purchase now will be outdated in 6 months to a year .

Bryguy

Bryguy said:

Don't forget, whatever you purchase now will be outdated in 6 months to a year .

Bryguy

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Great point. If you want a unit for mostly music, I'd suggest one that has an internal graphic/parametric eq. When you run 5.1 or more speakers, you can use all the tweakability you can get. An eq will only help.

Another thing to remember is that this is the time of year for manufacturers to introduce new models. It's a great time of year to pick up last year's model at a good price.

As far as brands, I like Denon, Yamaha and Marantz. If you want to look at something a little less popular but good "bang for the buck" try Outlaw or Rotel. If you have more money to throw at it, my favorite B&K.

It seems everything gets outdated so quickly. I just want to make a purchase and be content with it. LOL Sounds Buddhist I know. LOL Anyway...is better to go with an amp then?

David

If you mean go with separate pre/pro and amplifiers, that's your call! It will cost you more up front. The nice part is the amps don't go bad. When you want to upgrade you just change the pre/pro. When you buy a receiver, you have to replace the whole thing.

If you're just starting out, I always tell people to put most of their money into the speakers. You can start off with a "middle of the road" receiver for now and change to separates later. Buy an affordable receiver that can be moved to another room later (or sold). The main thing is the bells and whistles. If it doesn't have the right type of switching ability and inputs (DVI or HDMI) you might not be happy if you use it in a normal home theater environment. Play with them in the store. See which one is easy to operate, has an understandable remote control, good display..............

I would wait for the RX-V2600 with HDMI and RS232. Not only that but Yamaha builds some of the most advanced DSP Processors out there. The Cinema DSP modes bring new life to your room.

~Bob

WilRember7 said:

It seems everything gets outdated so quickly. I just want to make a purchase and be content with it. LOL
David

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It is all relative, isn't it?

If you jump on every new gadgets that come out every 6 mo or so, then yes, things get obsolete in a hurry. But, if you are the other type, then, how can it be obsolete to you?

Will, my quick 2 cents on your decision is this: listen to the Yamaha and the Denon and the Pioneer in a store listening room in an A/B test with speakers as most similar to those you are considering on-hand (i.e. floor standing three-ways of similar constuction, dimension and response).

You WILL hear the difference. I have done this with the amps you mention and I can tell you that the Denon is far superior to the Yamaha unless you like a really bright, in-your face sound. The Pioneer Elite (over $1000) on the other hand was nice, but when you switch to the Denon it's as if a veil has been lifted from the music increasing the clarity and balance throughout the range.

Again, you need to listen the the gear if you're serious about the type of sound you're looking for. To say amplifiers are "flat in their response that it would be difficult at best to discern differences in sound quality" is absolute nonsense. Do you really think people are stupid enough to spend thousands of dollars on separate amplifiers, tube gear etc. for nothing? This person has probably never heard these (or any other) amps side-by-side and is not giving accurate information. Amplifiers don't have "flat response" - in fact they ALL have frequency response curves including in the audible range - see http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14180/css/14180_55.htm There are other charactertics ini addition to response that will effect how the amplifier sounds as well, of course - all the more reason to listen for yourself!

One last thing - if you can't hear a difference, then just buy something that looks good, is well constructed and reasonably priced and you wil be happy. There's a lot of decent sounding gear around at relatively low cost.

buddhabreath said:

There are other charactertics ini addition to response that will effect how the amplifier sounds as well, of course - all the more reason to listen for yourself!

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True, but the listening room at the store that you auditioned the receivers in is going to be vastly different than your room, with your speakers. So the receiver that you believe to be vastly superior based on an in-store audition may turn out to be lacking when you actually get it home.

Here is a simple example that illustrates the problem:
I had my Onkyo receiver set up in my small apartment and had it calibrated perfectly and it sounded great for both music and movies. I bought a house and brought the same receiver and speakers with me. When I set it up, it sounded horrible - all of a sudden it was bright and annoying. Did my previously 'warm' receiver suddenly become 'bright' or did my speakers suddenly have a different timbre? Of course not - it was the room. After messing with speaker positioning and recalibrating the receiver for the new room, it's back to sounding good.

The Yamaha that sounded bright in the showroom may not be that way when you get it home and dial it in properly. Listening tests are important, but NOT on the showroom floor.

MDS said:

True, but the listening room at the store that you auditioned the receivers in is going to be vastly different than your room, with your speakers. So the receiver that you believe to be vastly superior based on an in-store audition may turn out to be lacking when you actually get it home.
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Listening tests are important, but NOT on the showroom floor.

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I agree. The only thing that can be done in an in-store A/B test is to get a relative feel for on amp or other component vs. another - but it's better IMO than having never heard the amps at all, particulary if you're going to purchase over the web. As you know, the same is true for speakers which present dramatic differences when you take the suckers home and put them in that very different room - and maybe even shoved up against a wall .

Point well taken.

MDS said:

The Yamaha that sounded bright in the showroom may not be that way when you get it home and dial it in properly. Listening tests are important, but NOT on the showroom floor.

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Then again, it's not totally useless either. I tend to do 1 foot listens at showrooms rather than sweet spot/viewing position listening tests. It takes most of the showroom acoustics out of the equation. Obviously, there are drawbacks to this method, but you can at least narrow your choices down this way in order to see which few you would like to demo at home.

buddhabreath said:

To say amplifiers are "flat in their response that it would be difficult at best to discern differences in sound quality" is absolute nonsense. Do you really think people are stupid enough to spend thousands of dollars on separate amplifiers, tube gear etc. for nothing? This person has probably never heard these (or any other) amps side-by-side and is not giving accurate information.

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WilRember7 - If you do enough reading and research, you'll find that there are two schools of thought regarding this. One is that amplifiers, as long as they are equally set and not driven to clipping, sound the same. After all, amplifiers, if they're doing their job, should not color the signal; only amplify it. This school of thought is supported mainly by the audio engineer crowd. For example, Daniel Kumin, a respected Contributing Technical Editor for Sound & Vision magazine, says, "In general, talk of modern electronics being "warm" or "bright" in terms of tonal balance---frequency response---is great nonsense: virtually all of today's better components are flat in response well beyond our ability to discriminate." This school of thought is also supported by several published double-blind studies. The proponents of this school of thought argue that any audible differences between amplifiers which are heard by the buddhabreaths of the world are attributable to the amps not being set equally or to differences in room acoustics or to their imaginations.

The other school of thought is that there are audible differences between amplifiers. This is supported by the "audiophile" crowd, particularly those who sell high end equipment. I am unaware of any double-blind tests which support this school. Of course, in your research you will find that the proponents of this school of thought poo poo double blind tests and say that they're all flawed.

I will concede that, with respect to receivers, there are other internal components aside from the amplifier itself, that may color the sound but only slightly; probably not enough for anyone except the most experienced critical listeners to hear. That does not include me.

I don't write this to re-start the debate. I do not believe I will convince buddhabreath to come around to my way of thinking and I don't believe he will convince me. I only write this to say that there are opposing viewpoints on this and that you need to develop your own opinion.

jimmit said:

I don't write this to re-start the debate. I do not believe I will convince buddhabreath to come around to my way of thinking and I don't believe he will convince me. I only write this to say that there are opposing viewpoints on this and that you need to develop your own opinion.

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Hey it's good clean fun to debate this stuff - and least it's not as ugly as politics. Sorry if I came on too strong - there certainly are two schools of thought on this. I for instance think it's insane to spend $4000.00 on interconnects. i bet we agree on that!

For amplifiers all I can tell you is that EE's do not consider response is flat for audio amplification, although it can be reasonalby debated how/if this is perceived in the audible range. All I can tell you is that I've auditioned VERY expensive equipment with similar specs on paper that sounded dramatically different in side-by-side tests even in "pure direct" modes (just the attenuation without the DSP/tone controls). Now this is certainly a subjective thing and again, each much judge for themselves. The one-foot thing previously mentioned sounds like a helpful suggestion too.

I'm willing to bet that in the end we're all of the school that thinks putting together a system is an art as well as a science - that's why it's so much dogonne fun!

Cheers

buddhabreath said:

I for instance think it's insane to spend $4000.00 on interconnects. i bet we agree on that!

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Each or all together? I've spent way more than $4K total on cables. I'd have spent way more if I had the money for Kimber.

There's one thing always forgotten when you go with separates. You need another interconnect cable for each channel. And of course you're not going to buy separates then buy cheap interconnect cables!

buddhabreath said:

Hey it's good clean fun to debate this stuff - and least it's not as ugly as politics. Sorry if I came on too strong - there certainly are two schools of thought on this. I for instance think it's insane to spend $4000.00 on interconnects. i bet we agree on that!

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As to viewing the "debate" as good clean fun, you and I are on the same sheet of music. I said what I said about not wanting to start the debate because I was wary of beginning any kind of hyperpassionate or contentious discussion. As someone who does not have a whole lot of AV experience and whose old ears are not what they used to be, my inclination is to come down on the side of the scientists/audio engineers and their DB listening tests. But, I have an open mind and may someday have an epiphany.

Oh, and I don't have $4,000 to spend on a receiver let alone interconnects.