Subs :D

Subs - SVS and Paradigm your thoughts?

I am looking to add a sub to my 2 channel system and have narrowed it down to either the Paradigm Servo 15 or the SVS PB12+. I have a feeling that the Servo 15 will be the tighter, more musical sub while the SVS can maybe hit higher SPLs and perhaps be better for movies. However I tend to prefer more musicial subs to earthshakers. Now only problem is the Servo 15 is $1000 NZD (roughly $670US) more expensive than the PB12+ and I have no problems settling for the SVS if its musical enough Also I am not sure if spending more with SVS will get me a more musical sub. At that price it actually falls in line with the price of a Paradigm PW2200v2 here in NZ and I am not sure which of those 2 is the more musical. I havn't had an opportunity to listen to SVS subs at all so this is purely all speculation. What are your opinions on these subs if you have had an opportunity to listen to them all and please dont recommend any other subs for me to look at, most brands are poorly represented here in New Zealand and I think I would be happy with any one of these.

Cheers
THT

I haven't heard the Servo-15, but even the 2200 is already a pretty good sub; one of the few Paradigm subs I like. The 15 should be very tight, but for that price difference, I'd say go with the SVS. I own the PB-10 and I've heard the "normal" PB-12. Music isn't a problem for them. They are not quite as punchy at the top end, but bottom end support is excellent and very natural. Their very flat bass reproduction is as easily at home with music or movies.

I disagree. I don't believe the SVS subs are good for music. They are awesome for HT. The SVS subs are designed to go low, they seem to miss that punch ~30-35 Hz. The only exception would be the SVS PC-Ultra. I really like that sub for everything. I would go with the Paradigm or a HSU sub for music. The servo unit is very good and sounds better for music IMO.

I've never understood this notion that one sub is good for music and another is only good for movies - makes no sense. The sub doesn't know whether it is playing music, a movie, or music within a movie. Given that the SVS subs are extremely accurate (per various reviews with actual measurements) could it just be that some people prefer a sub that is slightly less accurate and actually boosts or attenuates the signal at the 'critical' 30 - 35 Hz region?

Another thing that I find odd is when people say this sub (or speaker) lacks 'punch' at 35 Hz or lacks punch in the 'mid-bass'. If you were to play test tones at 30 Hz, 35 Hz, and 40 Hz the number of people that could accurately identify which tone is at which frequency is practically zero.

MDS said:

I've never understood this notion that one sub is good for music and another is only good for movies - makes no sense. The sub doesn't know whether it is playing music, a movie, or music within a movie. Given that the SVS subs are extremely accurate (per various reviews with actual measurements) could it just be that some people prefer a sub that is slightly less accurate and actually boosts or attenuates the signal at the 'critical' 30 - 35 Hz region?

Another thing that I find odd is when people say this sub (or speaker) lacks 'punch' at 35 Hz or lacks punch in the 'mid-bass'. If you were to play test tones at 30 Hz, 35 Hz, and 40 Hz the number of people that could accurately identify which tone is at which frequency is practically zero.

Click to expand...

Music doesn't typically have content below 35Hz. Why would you have a sub with a box that is tuned for 16 or 20Hz then?

The accuracy of the unit is compromised for the low-end extension. This is not needed for music, so why have it?

Tuning and power make one sub sound different from another, but what makes one sub better or worse for music is a personal preference and your room is a big factor in that.

I have never heard anyone say that SVS isn't as accurate and they are designed for just the low end. I also hear a lot of people say "where's the bass" when they first get an SVS and hear accurate bass for the first time. Someone used to bloat that is common for mass market subs and the average room, where there tends to be a hump at 40-50Hz, will mistake the lack of this exaggeration as less bass, when in fact it is more accurate. It takes some time and proper calibration, just as with any sub, but I have no complaints about SVS's musical capability. I've heard the 2200 and the PB-12, and the 2200 is no better for music than the PB-12.

The HSU VTF-3 might be another sub to look into too though. I used to own a VTF-2 and it was a great sub.

I'm not sure where you get that a lot of music has no content below 35Hz, because a lot of stuff I listen to sure seems to, so I guess it really depends on what you listen to.

ThinkingHT - If there is someone in NZ that makes tuned sub boxes, maybe get a driver and build your own, powered by a simple, external power amplifier. If you can get a tuned box, building a sub is major low-tech. The finish on the box will be the hard part.

Btw, just received the new Swandri “cattle dog”. Don't know which one yet, but I am determined have someone inherit something of value.

The SVS subs will do fine with music as long as you have some larger bookshelves, or towers that can reproduce the lower music frequencies.

SVS designed their subs first for HT, then for music. A large box with a ported design will tend to accentuate the lowest tones, those sometimes not needed with music. That's not to say they won't hit the 35Hz notes. They will, but due to the immense size of the box, won't be as efficient as a smaller box - all other things being equal.

There's a give and take in sub design. You can't always have your cake and eat it, too. Just ask mule.

Most demanding 2 channel guys don't want a subwoofer in the mix. You're not going to convince them any type of sub is going to help.

For most "general" music listening, I don't really need the sub. I often put the system in "direct" mode which means full range mains, no sub - but it depends on my mood, what I'm doing, and what I'm listening to. My 2ch setup has no sub, and I like it that way

I didn't make myself perfectly clear before so...

While I am getting a sub now and all I will be using it for is music, it will eventually end up in an HT system. Only reason I don't have a 6.1 system now is purely due to a lack of cash .

I think my next purchase after the sub would be:

Pair of Studio 20s, CC570 and a AV receiver Yammie 2500, 3805 or similar.
And will finish off with a quality DVD player and Studio 100v3s for the mains and an extra studio 20 for centre rear channel.

As I can only really buy one thing at a time, I will get a sub now since it stands to benefit my current system. Having said that, I would prefer a sub with more control and snap than one that is adapt at going below 20Hz while losing a bit of control in the 30-80Hz range (but I do want that 20Hz and slightly below extension for movies - hence Servo 15). So my real questions I guess then are:

1) Is the SVS PB12+ considerably less musical than a Servo 15 (If there isn't much of a difference then I dont mind settling for SVS as I have said before)
2) How does the PB12+ compare with the PW2200v2, which are comparable in price where I live, but I get a real wood finish with SVS .
3) If there any more musical subs than the SVS PB12+ in SVS own product range, please let me know oh and at a similar price also.

Room size is 6x7 meters.

Cheers
THT

MDS said:

The sub doesn't know whether it is playing music, a movie, or music within a movie. .

Click to expand...

But, but, but, some subs are intelligent. They can tell. Just ask the listener

Have you discounted the Hsu VTF-3 from your short list? I think it gives you what you're looking for in a multi-purpose sub (music now...HT later). Just plug up or unplug a port and your sub 20hz or bangin' out some music. With this sub, you have a nicely reviewed 'musical' sub with tons o' punch and is tighter than the SVS (as has been reported on this forum). You'll also save some cash over that SVS. Any of the three will make you happy, though, I believe!

MacManNM said:

Music doesn't typically have content below 35Hz. Why would you have a sub with a box that is tuned for 16 or 20Hz then?

The accuracy of the unit is compromised for the low-end extension. This is not needed for music, so why have it?

Click to expand...

I guess I'm missing your point. You're telling me that manufacturers of subs "tune" their subs to just play one frequency? Either the 35hz you seem to prefer, or the 16hz Home Theaterists prefer?

Isn't that rather silly? I want a sub to play the entire range between 16hz and 80hz equally, accurately, and loudly without any artificial spikes at certain frequencies and without compromise.

And yes, I listen to organ music. And I listen to the 1812 Overture with real cannons.

I want a sub to play the entire range between 16hz and 80hz equally, accurately, and loudly without any artificial spikes at certain frequencies and without compromise.

Click to expand...

Then you can not cheap out on a subwoofer. Like every other component subs do sound different then each other so you have to pick one which sounds good to you. Some subs do perform better at high or lower frequencies.

No, manufacturers tune their subs to extend to a certain frequency. In order for SVS to get their subs to extend so low, they comprimise some "tightness" and accuracy in the upper bass. There are few subs that are very tight AND can match the SPL and depth of an SVS. The DD-1812 Signature comes to mind...

Solution for HT and music

Shadow_Ferret said:

I guess I'm missing your point. You're telling me that manufacturers of subs "tune" their subs to just play one frequency? Either the 35hz you seem to prefer, or the 16hz Home Theaterists prefer?

Isn't that rather silly? I want a sub to play the entire range between 16hz and 80hz equally, accurately, and loudly without any artificial spikes at certain frequencies and without compromise.

And yes, I listen to organ music. And I listen to the 1812 Overture with real cannons.

Click to expand...

They typically tune their subs to favor one over the other.

We're all looking for that one sub that isn't insanely priced.

Your best bet is for two subs; get an SVS PB12 Ultra/II and a Def Tech Super Cube Reference. That should hold you for awhile until Mac designs one to handle the 16Hz - 80Hz spread at even spls. (Or just buy a $3000 Martin Logan Descent and be done with it )

I see. So it's about compromise, like everything. Because this thing is $12000+!!

It’s ok. You’re not really hearing “real cannons” when you are listing to the 1812 Overture. You’re just getting a minor representation of what a real cannon sounds like.


Fwiw, that Velodyne isn't going to reproduce a real cannon, either. If it did, you wouldn't have your hearing for very long...and your listening room would be destroyed from the sound pressure wave.

If I can find the disc around here, I'll post a pic of what a cannon looks like on vinyl, a pressing Telarc did some 25+ years ago of the 1812 Overture. You can literally see the cannon bangs in the groove of the vinyl.

I think I have that copy. Detroit Symphony, wasn't it?

I don’t recall, would need to look. During the 70’s I bought so may direct-to-disk pressings, I just remember that Telarc (and Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs) wasn’t d2d.