B&W 705: Disappointing

[jaxvon]

I had some extra time to burn after work today so I decided to stop by the local B&W dealer. I plopped down for only about 25 minutes (the store was closing in at 5:30, I got there at 5). For reference, I took my usual listening material, which is basically Steely Dan/Donald Fagen. The guy set up them up running full range. I elected to not run them with the sub, so as to just get a feel for the speakers themselves. Cabling was some pretty Audioquest garden hose with batteries :D

First up was the title track off The Nightfly. I was immediately astounded by the image these things threw. This was really the most impressive thing about the speakers. The sounstaging and imaging was very big for the size of the speaker. Fagen was right in front of me, sitting as his Rhodes. The speakers started to disappear into the room and push the music toward me. But I said I was disappointed, didn't I? Well, yes. The highs seemed a little bit bright. The room did have some acoustical panels and some absorbing stuff in it, as well as a bookshelf to the right of the setup. There was nothing at the primary reflection points, and I think this might've had something to do with it. Still, compared to my usual listening tool (Sony MDR-7506 headphones, EQ'd according to WmAx's specs for flat response), the 705's seemed bright. I might also attribute this to the fact that I do a lot of listening in my car, which has rolled off highs.

The 705s sounded very nice at moderate levels, barring the slightly bright character. As I cranked it up though, to levels I would normally listen at, the midrange started to sound terrible. It sounded like everything got mushed together. Save for Fagen's voice coming out of the space behind the equipment stack in front of me, all the guitars, pianos, etc. sounded like they had been stuffed into a small box and were not eminating from the speaker in any cohesive way. This was very disappointing. For a speaker like the 705 with that famous yellow Kevlar driver, I would think the midrange would be more open.

Next up was The Goodbye Look off the same album, probably my favorite track. The cymbals at the beginning were very much localized to the tweeter in the right speaker, but after the rest of the band came in, the soundstage spread out and was very good sounding. I didn't notice the brightness as much on this track, I was probably used to it by now. The Goodbye Look sounded excellent. The marimba, the rhodes, Fagen's voice, all sounded incredible. My wallet started to get warm in my pocket. I was particularly impressed with the 705's ability to reproduce the low bass drum "thud" that is present on the chorus underneath "I believe I just got the goodbye look". I was thinking that this would be absent and that I'd have to turn on the sub to get the sound.

Then came Hey Nineteen off the Gaucho album. Pain. Pain and suffering. Part of my pain and suffering was due to the fact that I had the system cranked for The Nightfly, which is mastered at a much lower level than Gaucho. So anyway, as the track started, I'm pretty sure my ears started to bleed. The highs were that sharp. I, of course, being the lazy bastard that I am didn't turn it down, but was still kind of cringing from the sibilance. Now, I realize that the drums are programmed on this album, but this is the only setup I've heard Hey Nineteen on that sounded so rediculously overpowering on the cymbals. The harmonized vocals on "The Cuervo Gold..." sounded very nice, and opened up into a wide soundstage, but that was the only good thing that happened on this track. The midrange in general still sounded compressed and muffled. The wallet was ice cold after this experience.

The last track of my short listening session was Reelin' in the Years off the live album Alive in America. The live presence was there, as was the soundstage, but the midrange thing was still happening too. I was most unimpressed with this. I kept wating for something to happen, for a veil to lift, and the midrange to explode into the room and all of my hopes and dreams would be fulfilled (well not quite, but you get where I'm going with this).

I truly and honestly wanted to like the 705s, but alas, I could not. The insane brightness experienced on a well-recorded album, coupled with the lack of clarity in the midrange just turned me off completely. I'd like to go back soon and listen with the sub hooked up and crossoved over around 80Hz. I have a sneaking suspicion that doing this would help open up the midrange. But it still wouldn't clear up the brightness issue. B&W was on my list of speakers to listen to so that when I get upgraditis (as well as the budget), I can make a decision more easily.

Every time I go out and listen, it's abundantly clear why the mantra when making speaker selections is always "Go Listen!". I'd like to hear from others around here that have listened to the 705s and what they thought.

[miklorsmith]

My buddy demo'd some in-house and we had a two-hour sesh with them. He's got mellow Arcam gear, NOT known for harshness.

If you asked me before reading your review to describe these in one word, "bright" would have been it. As in - boring into your skull bright. Klipsch does this to me too. A lot of people must like it because they're a huge, successful company. If I had to live with these though, I wouldn't be an audiohead.

[jaxvon]

Boring into your skull...yes indeed.

I think that I have extra sensitive hearing at higher frequencies or something. Or perhaps I just don't like metal tweeters. Every supposedly good metal tweeter I've heard (including studio monitors) sound harsh and blaring, very unnatural. Good thing I've got some soft domes waiting for me to set up.

[8118]

Jaxvon, have u tried the 804 or 803S/D?

I am doing some search for my fronts, I have a pair of 15 years old pionner fronts, they still doing good, but I would like to have some new speakers couple with my new receiver.

btw, regarding the megapan, thanks for the info, how freq u need to replace (or service??) the ribbon, how much is cost? anyway, i think i took it off from my list..

B&W 800 series is always on top of my list, but i havent have time and chance to listen to them. If you have the time and chance, try to experience them and post your review.... your advice is always highly appreciated.....

[jaxvon]

Thanks for the compliment! I plan on going back to the dealer when I have some actual time on my hands and giving the 705s a second chance when mated with a sub. But, I'll give the 803Ds a shot. Maybe that Diamond tweeter will be magical...

Anyway, I'll PM you on the magnepan replacement thing. I don't know offhand, but I was looking for something to do on the internet, so research it is.

Do you have any preferences on source material? I have access to a lot of jazz and classic rock.

[MacManNM]

Boring into your skull...yes indeed.

I think that I have extra sensitive hearing at higher frequencies or something. Or perhaps I just don't like metal tweeters. Every supposedly good metal tweeter I've heard (including studio monitors) sound harsh and blaring, very unnatural. Good thing I've got some soft domes waiting for me to set up.


They tend to resonate. That's why they all sound harsh.

[Takeereasy]

This really does serve to showcase peoples taste differences. I love the aluminum tweets in my PSBs. The only B & W's I've ever heard that I didn't think were overrated didn't use metal tweets and they absolutely dropped my jaw they were so good. I do think Klipsch is too bright but they aren't drilling into my head either, and I've never seen a really nice Klipsch setup so I can't be totally fair. Nice review Jaxvon. On a side note not listening to those Bic 62s yet is killing me. I've had to push back the HSU/Bic demo for a couple of weeks due to unforseen household expenditures like my anniversary (that I rememberd 2 days before it happened).

[Swerd]

This really does serve to showcase peoples taste differences. I love the aluminum tweets in my PSBs. The only B & W's I've ever heard that I didn't think were overrated didn't use metal tweets and they absolutely dropped my jaw they were so good.

Nice review Jaxvon.Yes, nice review. The single best tool to use for selecting speakers is knowing how to listen. I think you got that part down. I also think that now you know you dislike shrill sounding speakers. You are not the first to say that about B&W. Move on to something else and keep listening.

Some others here (not Takeereasy) have repeated the dogma that aluminum tweeters sound harsh. Just because they are bright and shiny looking doesn't mean they must sound that way. I've heard both aluminum and silk tweeters sound shrill in speakers, and the opposite as well. It's really all in the crossover. How the woofer and tweeter are blended together by the crossover is usually what makes for or avoids shrillness. Sometimes it can easily be adjusted by adding extra resistors for the tweeter circuit to lower its output to a similar level to the woofer. Sometimes it is really the woofer that causes the shrillness.

I looked up the B&W 705s that you listened to and was surprised to see that the crossover point was at 3700 Hz. That is unusually high for what appears to be either a 5.25" or 6.5" woofer. More typical are crossovers somewhere between 2000 to 3000 Hz. I don't know what the woofer's high frequency response is at and above 3700 Hz (and we're not likely to find out from B & W) but some speakers that size have some nasty breakup peaks in that range. That could explain the unusually bright or shrill sound you described.

I'm not really trying to badmouth B & W here, but I am going to suggest that, considering their high price, you ought to look into DIY speaker building. You can easily make speakers that are the equivalent of those that retail for 3 to 5 times as much. If you don't do woodworking, you can buy nice premade cabinets and still save a lot of money. I have heard and made several DIY designs of 2-ways that cost $300 to $400 a pair that are superior to commercial designs that sell for $1000 to $1500 a pair. Until 3 years ago, I never considered building my own and now I would never buy a commercially built speaker.

[furrycute]

When you push bookshelf speakers too hard, they will sound strained and distorted. That was the reason why I sold my bookshelf speakers and got a pair of floorstanders. Larger speakers hold up much better when you push up the volume.

Cost wise, a pair of bookshelf speakers plus a pair of stands almost equal the price of a pair of small floorstanders. Why don't you try a couple of B&W's 800 series floorstanders and see if you like them. I am drooling after a pair of the flagship Nautilus. :D

Have you tried Totem's Manni 2? That bookshelf model has a unique dual woofer design that's supposed to give you amazing bass response inside a bookshelf enclosure.

[Privateer]

What equipment were the 705's hooked up to?

[jaxvon]

Thanks guys.

Privateer...think for second...What equipment is B&W ALWAYS hooked up to? Rotel.

Just for reference though, the setup was an RC-1072 CD player, an RC-1070 preamp, and a RC-1090 amp. They weren't being played with garbage.

I honestly did this listening session just for the heck of it. I wanted to get out and listen to know what's out there. I can't afford the 705s, and I already bought the speakers that I'm going to put into my poor college student HT, those being 2 pairs of DV62SIBs...which are still in their boxes. But since they are supposedly bright out of the box, I guess they'll have to get the crossovers modded ASAP.

I plan on going back to the dealer to listen to the 705s again (with a sub, to see if the midrange clears up), and then sit down with some Diamonds. Maybe the diamond tweeter won't have the resonance issues (since it's breakup is at like 100kHz). Plus, I'm gonna do a favor for a member here and report my findings.

[cornelius]

I've demo'd 705's and other B&Ws with the same impressions. My local dealer always matches up the B&W speakers with McIntosh or Classe gear to take the edge off.

[indcrimdefense]

I listened to several sets of B&W speakers last weekend when shopping for components. The B&W 703 w/ rotel 1072 & interegrated stereo amp had a clean, sterile sound, very clear but lacked body. Listened to 803 or 804 on lexicon system, and was generally impressed, but there was also a sub playing so difficult to evaluate the speakers alone. Also heard the 803 or 804 on McIntosh, Classe & Cary Audio equipment and was impressed. Very precise sound, clear differences in high/mid/low, & great vocals. Previously I've also heard the CM4 or CM6 w/ rotel 1098 pre/pro & Cary Audio Cinema 7 amp and was impressed. Would not describe any of them as bright, but I have not listened to any of their bookshelf speakers, only floorstanding speakers.

I have Klipsch speakers all around, and they can run bright depending on what components are used. If cost were no option, I would have purchased other speakers, but the klipsch were the best I heard at their respective price points. Also looked at paradigm, definitive technology, baby martin logan, and several others which must not have much of an impression since I can't recall. I like a big, full sound, and broad soundstage, and this is what my speakers provide. Have been very happy with them, and after listening to B&W all afternoon last weekend, was not disappointed when I came home & listened to my system.

[furrycute]

Have you had a chance to audition the 802 or the 801, or the 800 models? I am thinking about picking up one of those.

[jaxvon]

Like I posted before, I plan on going back to the dealer to check out some other stuff, just for reference. I really do want to see if they Diamond is as good as they claim. I'm not sure if they have the 800s, but I know they have the 803s and the 801s. BTW...those 801s are frickin' giant. Those are room dominators for sure. I think I'd rather have the 803s and a good sub, for the fact that they are nice and skinny.

[kay]

Would be interesting to hear your impressions of the 800s, and potentially the 600s. Someone I know, who is an avid fan of B&W, told me once he likes the 600 much better than the 700 series, and that he'd rather jump from 600 straight to 800, which are far superior.

Me, I've only heard the 600 series (603 S3) off a Denon 3805, and I loved the sound. Did not find them bright at all, very balanced and the imaging is simply amazing.

[Pat D]

Yes, nice review. The single best tool to use for selecting speakers is knowing how to listen. I think you got that part down. I also think that now you know you dislike shrill sounding speakers. You are not the first to say that about B&W. Move on to something else and keep listening.

Some others here (not Takeereasy) have repeated the dogma that aluminum tweeters sound harsh. Just because they are bright and shiny looking doesn't mean they must sound that way. I've heard both aluminum and silk tweeters sound shrill in speakers, and the opposite as well. It's really all in the crossover. How the woofer and tweeter are blended together by the crossover is usually what makes for or avoids shrillness. Sometimes it can easily be adjusted by adding extra resistors for the tweeter circuit to lower its output to a similar level to the woofer. Sometimes it is really the woofer that causes the shrillness.

I looked up the B&W 705s that you listened to and was surprised to see that the crossover point was at 3700 Hz. That is unusually high for what appears to be either a 5.25" or 6.5" woofer. More typical are crossovers somewhere between 2000 to 3000 Hz. I don't know what the woofer's high frequency response is at and above 3700 Hz (and we're not likely to find out from B & W) but some speakers that size have some nasty breakup peaks in that range. That could explain the unusually bright or shrill sound you described.

I'm not really trying to badmouth B & W here, but I am going to suggest that, considering their high price, you ought to look into DIY speaker building. You can easily make speakers that are the equivalent of those that retail for 3 to 5 times as much. If you don't do woodworking, you can buy nice premade cabinets and still save a lot of money. I have heard and made several DIY designs of 2-ways that cost $300 to $400 a pair that are superior to commercial designs that sell for $1000 to $1500 a pair. Until 3 years ago, I never considered building my own and now I would never buy a commercially built speaker.

Well, you can check the measurements in Figure 4 in the Stereophile review to see how the drivers match up. In any case, the 705 has very good dispersion and is quite flat in response, very smooth, as can be seen from Figures 5, 6, and 7. And it does sound very smooth, although the balance is perhaps a bit brighter than I would prefer. I found it very easy to listen to. I would suggest using it with a subwoofer, however, although the bass response is not all that bad, and it should be easy to integrate with a sub.

[WmAx]

Well, you can check the measurements in Figure 4 in the Stereophile review to see how the drivers match up. In any case, the 705 has very good dispersion and is quite flat in response, very smooth, as can be seen from Figures 5, 6, and 7. And it does sound very smooth, although the balance is perhaps a bit brighter than I would prefer. I found it very easy to listen to. I would suggest using it with a subwoofer, however, although the bass response is not all that bad, and it should be easy to integrate with a sub.

Indeed, the measured performance is superb for that speaker. Use that speaker with a device such as a Behringer DCX2496 and you can optimally integrate it with a subwoofer(even better, a pair of stereo subs), E.Q. bass modes, and modify the response curve with precision in order to achieve the specific balance/sound signature that is desired.

-Chris

[WmAx]

Like I posted before, I plan on going back to the dealer to check out some other stuff, just for reference. I really do want to see if they Diamond is as good as they claim. I'm not sure if they have the 800s, but I know they have the 803s and the 801s. BTW...those 801s are frickin' giant. Those are room dominators for sure. I think I'd rather have the 803s and a good sub, for the fact that they are nice and skinny.

Did you ever get back to the dealer? If so, you referred to trying the speakers with subwoofers. If this was done, was this done properly[using active crossovers to direct proper bands to the bookshevles and subs]?

BTW, just for fun participation in this thread, I listened to the speaker in question at a dealer the other day. I had them set it up in various arrangements in the room, and tried it with the same audition material in each position, in order to minimize chance of a bad positioning/set-up. I will not offer much in the way of a subjective analysis, but I did not find the speaker to do anything obviously technically wrong. It seemed like an excellent blank slate[by this I mean using a DCX2496 to shape the sound signature and integrate subwoofers, as I would never be happy with the speaker in it's current state, with the upper midrange/treble being higher in amplitude relative to the rest of the bandwidth than I prefer, and useless[IMO] low frequency output -- both things easily fixed with a DCX and some subs:) ], just as the measurements indicated. I do prefer superior treble disperion[something approaching omnidirectional], however.

-Chris

[jaxvon]

Well, I did get back to the dealer, but I didn't get a chance to sit down with the 800 series B&W speakers. I ended up listening to some Phase Tech speakers (see my thoughts here (http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12415)). They saw through my budget lies and shuffled me to the Phase Techs. I must say though, I'm a big fan of soft dome tweeters now. I grew up on Magnepans (old MG IC's), and I think their sound is probably closer to a soft dome than a metal one.

I know that B&W isn't crap, but to my ears, they were far too bright (by which I mean elevated treble and upper mid frequencies).

Out of curiosity, did you find any problems in the midrange? I found that sometimes vocals sounded compressed. It wasn't so bad at lower volumes, but when I cranked it, things didn't sound quite right.

[WmAx]

I grew up on Magnepans (old MG IC's), and I think their sound is probably closer to a soft dome than a metal one.

It is not reliable to generalize about the dome materials having specific signatures. While some percentage of such devices of a particular material may have common characteristics, either presently, or established only in the past, remember that the net effect is one of frequency response in the end; which can be modified electronically.

I know that B&W isn't crap, but to my ears, they were far too bright (by which I mean elevated treble and upper mid frequencies).

It might be that we differ on how to use a speaker. I'm not shy when it comes to measurement, analysis and re-assignment/modification of sound using DSP devices. So, to me, the most important thing is a technically superb device in the first place, so far as the most important measured parameters, which the B&W speaker in question certainly fulfills. The shaping of the tonal response later is a trivial matter, really, once you get the first part right[which is the toughest].

Out of curiosity, did you find any problems in the midrange? I found that sometimes vocals sounded compressed. It wasn't so bad at lower volumes, but when I cranked it, things didn't sound quite right.

Well, as I stated, I did not like the balance of sound, but that does not matter[since the reponse is linear, thus easily modified accurately] if you use the appropriate equipment to make the simple modifications. In addition, I did not think the midrange faired to well with loud or dynamic material, due to the problems of using the midrange driver as the bass driver[with the significant movement involved]. But I would never use a speaker like this as a full range device anyways: I would use stereo subs[one near each speaker] and crossover between 80-100Hz, with a minimum 4th order slope rate, thus preventing low frequencies from being reproduced on the bookshelf-type speakers.

-Chris

[pigunios]

To jaxvon:

From my own experience with the b&w 705's I have to tell you and others here that the speakers are NOT bright! They are tonally almost perfect. They might be erring just a small bit towards bright, but that is something you can use! Not a serious flaw. What you heard on this demo meant many other things. The combo was not good, or the components and/or the cables. Judging by how you described the audioquest cables they must have been the gibraltar which are pretty good. But there are still better (or perfect I would dare say) cables for such speakers. The thing is that these speakers tell the truth about what you connect them with. And if you found the result you heard terrible I guarantee you that with a Pioneer receiver and dvd player that are not really meant for serious music reproduction the result could be even more terrible! I tried these speakers home with my system which is Musical Fidelity A300 amp, AH! Njoe tjoeb cd400 reference and wired all around with Harmonic Technology wires. Which is very important. At that time I was trying also different cables. The HT cables work best as a whole. Speaker cable, interlink, power cables. Each HT wire I was adding to the system, the sound improved becoming more refined, natural, transparent, open with excellent soundstage. I tried also Audioquest cables which are quite good but couldn't match the result of the HT's. Actually no other reasonably priced hiend cable can match them to my opinion. Everything else I tried with the 705's was missing something. Some cables were giving terrible results as well. Or sounded more grainy and less natural. And I tried HT cables with more speakers, not just the 705's! And the result was everytime similar. Musical purity with minimised distortion and grain.
Also my cd player that has the siemens E288cc tubes althought is quite detailed, it has smooth high's. The A300 amp has a perfect tonal balance with low distortion and grain. I'm not saying I have the best components, I'm sure there are better out there. But what I'm saying is that the synergy counts more than the parts. If you make a bad combination with the 705's you will hear the results. Terrible!
It seems that you do like some things about b&w speakers just as I do, judging also by your mixed feelings in that audition. Don't forget also that bad recordings cannot hide from these speakers. They will sound what they are, and worse with wrong components and cables. I just say that either you have to find another speaker that you think suits your taste, but try it in your system! Because an audition at the store will sound quite different with different room and system. Or give the b&w 705's a different combination. And because of personal experience I tell you: don't waste your time with time with sub-standard cables. They make a BIG impact to the sound. For better or worse. You can't go wrong with HT wires. With many others, including some fancy brands, you can!
But you try things out yourself and trust your ears! But try to biwire speakers like the 705's. Or if you don't, never use the metal jumbers! They add to this 'terrible sound' experience! Better use a decent jumber cable, preferably from the same brand (even better: the same wire) as the speaker cable.
Also the 705's like the cdm-1nt's sound better (more refined) with the tweeter grill off! It seems that this cover creates distortions and sibilance.
If you must have other speakers and want this kind of openess, detail and soundstage, then you could also try AVI's neutron-IV and Pro-9, or Epos speakers, or Audiophysics to name a few. The AVI speakers seem to be the most monitor like sound, very neutral but they are also very detailed and honest so matching needs good care, just as with the b&w's. And each speaker has it's own strengths.
I hope my opinion helps some people that are at the look for such speakers.
Cheers

[Sheep]

I love this,

Everyone who is yelling at jaxvon,

Your arguing over a difference of opinion.

Example

Joe: I love steak, its the best food ever.
Shmoe: WHAT :mad: :mad: :mad: Your wrong, steak is terrible, it tastes like garbage.

Another example

Bob Gandorf the 23rd: Blue is the greatest color ever. I see a red door and I want it painted blue.

Rick Thornstick: Blue? Blew?!? BLOO!?! Whats wrong with you. Everyone knows that all red doors should be painted purple, as it is the best color in the world. Donatello the ninja turtle wares a purple ninja mask, DUH!


see where im going?

By the by, nice review Jax.

The Sheep

[jaxvon]

To jaxvon:
Blah blah, you're wrong, blah blah, expensive cables make a difference, blah blah.
Cheers

Thanks for the kind words Sheep. And by the way, the AQ cables were Volcano, NOT Gibraltar. Either way, it wouldn't make a difference. The fact is, the sound of the B&Ws were not good to my ears. Did anyone not notice that this was a COMPLETELY subjective review? Every comment I made was prefaced with, "I thought", "I heard", etc.

The purpose of this review was to give people my opinion. Chances are, there's someone else out there with the same listening tastes as me that was considering the B&W speakers but now might have a better idea of how they'll sound to him/her.

[Sheep]

Thanks for the kind words Sheep. And by the way, the AQ cables were Volcano, NOT Gibraltar. Either way, it wouldn't make a difference. The fact is, the sound of the B&Ws were not good to my ears. Did anyone not notice that this was a COMPLETELY subjective review? Every comment I made was prefaced with, "I thought", "I heard", etc.

The purpose of this review was to give people my opinion. Chances are, there's someone else out there with the same listening tastes as me that was considering the B&W speakers but now might have a better idea of how they'll sound to him/her.

Damn you, you have 2 chicklets....I have catching up to do. :)

Well put my 18 year old bretheren(typo)

The Sheep
EDIT: Do not give out chicklets red or green, unless deserved. There is no joking around here.

[pigunios]

Thanks for the kind words Sheep. And by the way, the AQ cables were Volcano, NOT Gibraltar. Either way, it wouldn't make a difference. The fact is, the sound of the B&Ws were not good to my ears. Did anyone not notice that this was a COMPLETELY subjective review? Every comment I made was prefaced with, "I thought", "I heard", etc.

The purpose of this review was to give people my opinion. Chances are, there's someone else out there with the same listening tastes as me that was considering the B&W speakers but now might have a better idea of how they'll sound to him/her.

Well I was only offering my own experience and opinion as well. I'm not trying to correct anybody. If you like or dislike something when you hear it yourself that's the most important thing. Whatever makes you happy people.

Cheers

[pigunios]

[QUOTE=jaxvon]
"Originally Posted by pigunios
To jaxvon:
Blah blah, you're wrong, blah blah, expensive cables make a difference, blah blah."

By the way that's not what I'm saying. Is what you like to hear...your self only. But if you would listen other people's opinions also now and then perhaps you could learn and understand a thing or two.
Isn't that what reasonable argument is for? To learn and understand from each other's differences and experiences? Or do we love only to hear that we're always right? The honey to our ears?
Well it doesn't matter because sound is largelly a matter of personal taste anyway. I'm out of here.

[Sheep]

[QUOTE=jaxvon]
"Originally Posted by pigunios
To jaxvon:
Blah blah, you're wrong, blah blah, expensive cables make a difference, blah blah."

By the way that's not what I'm saying. Is what you like to hear...your self only. But if you would listen other people's opinions also now and then perhaps you could learn and understand a thing or two.
Isn't that what reasonable argument is for? To learn and understand from each other's differences and experiences? Or do we love only to hear that we're always right? The honey to our ears?
Well it doesn't matter because sound is largelly a matter of personal taste anyway. I'm out of here.

Really? "I have to tell you and others here that the speakers are NOT bright!"
Sure sounds like you were telling him they are not bright. Its one thing to offer an opinion, but if he heard them, anything you have have to say is irrelivent. He heard them, and used high quality listening material, and listened for 30 minutes. The speakers were broken in, and using high quality electronics, and sufficient cables.

If you like them, thats great, and im sure they are an excellent loudspeaker. He didn't say everything about them sucked. Just cool down, relax, throw on some Bob Marley and mellow out :) Its all about the music, and what you like.

The Sheep

[jaxvon]

Oh, and by the way, the reason I even mentioned the AQ cabling was because of this (http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/audioquestDBScablesrespons.php). For those of you who read the article, you would've gotten a little chuckle out of it.

[pigunios]

[QUOTE=pigunios]

Really? "I have to tell you and others here that the speakers are NOT bright!"
Sure sounds like you were telling him they are not bright. Its one thing to offer an opinion, but if he heard them, anything you have have to say is irrelivent. He heard them, and used high quality listening material, and listened for 30 minutes. The speakers were broken in, and using high quality electronics, and sufficient cables.

If you like them, thats great, and im sure they are an excellent loudspeaker. He didn't say everything about them sucked. Just cool down, relax, throw on some Bob Marley and mellow out :) Its all about the music, and what you like.

The Sheep

You are absolutely right my man. It's all about the music. And don't worry. I'm chill. I just wanted to explain why the speakers are not bright, because of the combination. But maybe I didn't do that correctly because I was enthousiastic of the results. For that I apoligise. But if you could notice better, what I said is that it doesn't matter how high quality the components are. They must gel with the speakers. Is the most fundamental truth in mix and match audio. Synergy. That's the magic. Because there are always slight differences of sonic signature between parts. And I kept mentioning the cables because without them my system didn't gel with these speakers. The HT's have a rich, full, smooth tonal balance (but still very transparent with huge soundstage) which make the SLIGHT weaknesses of these speakers vanish. My components are basically neutral. As a result the 705's leanish character becomes more balanced. Bass is fuller and deeper. Voices fuller and natural. Treble only serves a wonderful soundstage with no harshness.
Did you notice what else I said? "But you try things out yourself and trust your ears!" Does that sound to you like trying to impose ones opinion? I didn't think anybody was yelling to jaxvon.

More people in this thread and many more elsewere had different results as well. Doesn't that make it relevant for other people that might be interested in these speakers? At the end is important that we try out things and see what we like. Just don't do the same mistake I use to make to dispose quickly speakers or components with the first hint of nastyness. It takes much more than just 30' of brief listening.

Enjoy the music

[Sheep]

[QUOTE=Sheep]

You are absolutely right my man. It's all about the music. And don't worry. I'm chill. I just wanted to explain why the speakers are not bright, because of the combination. But maybe I didn't do that correctly because I was enthousiastic of the results. For that I apoligise. But if you could notice better, what I said is that it doesn't matter how high quality the components are. They must gel with the speakers. Is the most fundamental truth in mix and match audio. Synergy. That's the magic. Because there are always slight differences of sonic signature between parts. And I kept mentioning the cables because without them my system didn't gel with these speakers. The HT's have a rich, full, smooth tonal balance (but still very transparent with huge soundstage) which make the SLIGHT weaknesses of these speakers vanish. My components are basically neutral. As a result the 705's leanish character becomes more balanced. Bass is fuller and deeper. Voices fuller and natural. Treble only serves a wonderful soundstage with no harshness.
Did you notice what else I said? "But you try things out yourself and trust your ears!" Does that sound to you like trying to impose ones opinion? I didn't think anybody was yelling to jaxvon.

More people in this thread and many more elsewere had different results as well. Doesn't that make it relevant for other people that might be interested in these speakers? At the end is important that we try out things and see what we like. Just don't do the same mistake I use to make to dispose quickly speakers or components with the first hint of nastyness. It takes much more than just 30' of brief listening.

Enjoy the music

I apologise for not reading through your whole response, as I was sold on what I was looking for in the first line :rolleyes: The reason I said yelling is that you had exclamation marks in your post. Using emoticons can help change the tone of your message. I know where your coming from on system sinergy, and I agree. I have only had one stereo though, and all my speaker match, so I've never experienced upclose any other senarioes.

Sheep

[MDC]

Jaxvon, or anyone else, have you had a chance to listen to the tower speakers in the 700 family (703, 704)? Do you hear the same brightness or does the additional bass give the speakers more balance?

[jaxvon]

I didn't get a chance to hear the floorstanders. I see you live in Michigan...didn't you send me a PM asking about the shop I listened at? It's the same one where I checked out the Phase Tech speakers, the Stereo Shoppe on W. Stadium in Ann Arbor.

[MDC]

I did, thanks again for the info. I'm hoping to get there some Saturday when the kids don't have soccer and there is no UM home game!

[jaxvon]

You might want to call them. I know they have late hours during the week for people like you (I think open till 8 or 9).

Here's the Address and Phone Number for the Stereo Shoppe:

2335 W Stadium Blvd, Ann Arbor, MI
(734) 663-3600

[Pat D]

Well, I listened to the B & W 705 again a couple of days ago. While I still liked them, unfortunately for them I had just come from a session of listening to the Paradigm Signature S2, projects a more seamless soundstage and is altogether smoother. Now there is a first class speaker! While I have some others on my audition list, I doubt I shall find something better.

I also listened to the Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor, much more expensive and a very nice speaker. Not better than the Paradigm Signature S2 at 40% of the price, IMHO, however, and in fact I prefer the S2.

I haven't heard any Phase Techs. If one wants a mini-monitor, I still like the PSB Stratus Minis somewhat better than the 705 because of its more forgiving balance. It also has a deeper bass response.

[toquemon]

Hi, Jaxvon:

I read your review and i think you're right. B&W speakers are bright, but some people like it. I see you, like me, prefer soft dome tweeters and it's a matter of personal taste. I strongly recommend you Dynaudio speakers (Focus 220 and Focus 140). Theese speakers are incredibly sweet in the highs and very open in the mids; soundstage is huge even with the Focus 140 (bookshelf). Their construction quality is implecable.

They're expensive, I know, but i'm possitive you'll fall in love with them.

[tbewick]

I've only ever used the B&W DM601's and thought they were superb.

I'd like to defend B&W speakers. They aren't bright, they are accurate. If the original recording is excessively bright, which is often the case, then they will reproduce this accurately. B&W speakers have and still are widely used in the best recording studios because of their accuracy. For example, the classic B&W 801's were used almost exclusively by classical music recording studios through the 80's. I'm sure the latest 801's are just are popular as reference speakers.

If you give them some well recorded material (try playing a few classical, well recorded, vinyl records or some good quality classical CD's) then I'm sure that your B&W's will sound great.

Other speakers do sound warmer, but I would say that this is a colouration, which is strictly undesirable.

[jaxvon]

I realize that B&W makes superb loudspeakers. What do you think Alan Parsons mixes on? Still, the particular model I listened to was much to bright for my ears. That does not mean that the upper end 800 models have the attribute. If there were a big hump in the freqency response, they wouldn't be used as studio monitors. But as we all know, speakers for listening enjoyment are a personal taste, and I personally didn't care for the 705s.

[Sheep]

I realize that B&W makes superb loudspeakers. What do you think Alan Parsons mixes on? Still, the particular model I listened to was much to bright for my ears. That does not mean that the upper end 800 models have the attribute. If there were a big hump in the freqency response, they wouldn't be used as studio monitors. But as we all know, speakers for listening enjoyment are a personal taste, and I personally didn't care for the 705s.

Some people just don't get it eh? ;)

SheepStar

[toquemon]

Other speakers do sound warmer, but I would say that this is a colouration, which is strictly undesirable.

It's funny, but I always find B&W speakers colored in the highs. It's a matter of taste, not coloration.

[WmAx]

It's funny, but I always find B&W speakers colored in the highs. It's a matter of taste, not coloration.

Curiously, how did you determine if the coloration was due to the recording(s) or the speaker(s)?

In live A/B testing of live sources miced with measurement microphones, standing at the same position as the microphones, comparing the original source with the source live feed through headphones, it is curious that headphones that are typically labeled as 'bright' on commercial recordings sound nuetral(identical to source tonally). This leads me to suspect that most commercial recordings are tilted/emphasized in the high frequencies. This leads me to suspect that with a true flat response throughout the entire frequency band, that highs may sound 'emphasized' when using truly accurate speakers with such commercial recordings. In fact, I personally do not enjoy a flat response speaker on most commercial recordings -- I highly prefer a gradually tapered down treble response. This re-enforces my suspicion(s). Additionally(and at much greater weight than my suspicions), there is the research by various credited perceptual researchers that demonstrates a statistical [1]trend for listeners to find a somewhat tapered off high end as measured at the listening position to sound most 'flat'.

-Chris

[1]http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/images/er4-old-graph.gif

[tbewick]

I also prefer warmer sounding speakers but I would say that B&W are very accurate, ignoring personal preference.

Looking at most B&W speakers, they have quite small driver units relative to what you can have. I don't think they do a 15 inch driver, there top of the range model uses a 250 mm driver. Perhaps this gives them tighter bass with less 'wallow', producing a less warm sound. They also typically have high treble extension, normally at least to 30 kHz, which might add to their higher perceived brightness.

Another thing about B&W speakers is that they are quite demanding of the amplifier, which might make them sound worse at high volumes on less good equipment.

[WmAx]

I don't think they do a 15 inch driver, there top of the range model uses a 250 mm driver.

The N801 uses a 15" bass driver. The top of the line Nautilus active speaker also has a 15" driver.

Perhaps this gives them tighter bass with less 'wallow', producing a less warm sound.

Woofer size has no inherant bearing on 'tighter' bass, unless one is referring to that lower frequencies don't sound as 'tight' as higher frequencies, then of course a smaller woofer that can not reproduce the lower frequencies might sound 'tighter' by that definition. But one would first ask what you mean by 'tighter' so far as measurable behaviour so that the relevant issues can be explained.

They also typically have high treble extension, normally at least to 30 kHz, which might add to their higher perceived brightness. Ultra-sonic response is not proven to add anything that is audible.

-Chris

[Sheep]

Ultra-sonic response is not proven to add anything that is audible.

True, but if the speaker extends higher, its flatter in the audible range. So theres not much rolloff at 20Hz compared to a normal tweeter.

SheepStar

[WmAx]

True, but if the speaker extends higher, its flatter in the audible range. So theres not much rolloff at 20Hz compared to a normal tweeter.

SheepStar

A speaker does not need to remain flat out of the audible range to remain flat within the audible range. Besides, if you want to get down to details, response past 16kHz is not required for transparent reproduction on almost all music program(not counting some rare synthesized music examples that may add very high amplitude high frequency components that are long in duration), according to peer-reviewed and credited perceptual [1]tests with multiple trained subjects.

-Chris

Footnotes
[1] Which Bandwidth Is Necessary for Optimal Sound Transmission?
G. PLENGE, H. JAKUBOWSKI, AND P. SCHONE
JAES, Volume 28 Number 3 pp. 114-119; March 1980

[goodman]

Isn't it interesting that we can have totally civilized discourse through over 200 posts concerning evolution v. intelligent design, and remained courteous and humorous through many posts on "Brokeback Mountain". But, get us started on the sound of speakers or cables, and the fur starts to fly.
BTW, I really enjoyed your review, Jaxvon.

[Nuglets]

You are absolutely right my man. It's all about the music. And don't worry. I'm chill. I just wanted to explain why the speakers are not bright, because of the combination. But maybe I didn't do that correctly because I was enthousiastic of the results. For that I apoligise. But if you could notice better, what I said is that it doesn't matter how high quality the components are. They must gel with the speakers. Is the most fundamental truth in mix and match audio. Synergy. That's the magic. Because there are always slight differences of sonic signature between parts. And I kept mentioning the cables because without them my system didn't gel with these speakers. The HT's have a rich, full, smooth tonal balance (but still very transparent with huge soundstage) which make the SLIGHT weaknesses of these speakers vanish. My components are basically neutral. As a result the 705's leanish character becomes more balanced. Bass is fuller and deeper. Voices fuller and natural. Treble only serves a wonderful soundstage with no harshness.
Did you notice what else I said? "But you try things out yourself and trust your ears!" Does that sound to you like trying to impose ones opinion? I didn't think anybody was yelling to jaxvon.

More people in this thread and many more elsewere had different results as well. Doesn't that make it relevant for other people that might be interested in these speakers? At the end is important that we try out things and see what we like. Just don't do the same mistake I use to make to dispose quickly speakers or components with the first hint of nastyness. It takes much more than just 30' of brief listening.

Enjoy the music

I'm gellin...Are you gellin?

[highfihoney]

Your review of the 705's is very much like what i hear from all b&w speakers when some power is put through them no matter the model,room or associated gear,at lower volumes they sound ok or even good but after they get some juice going through them they sound terrible to me.

[furrycute]

In the original post, Jaxvon stated that his usual audio gear consists of a pair of Sony MDR-7506 headphone. That particular model has been used extensively in the recording industry, as the de facto monitor headphone for many years. They do give a flat response, but many people also find that particular model intolerably bright. I listened through a pair, and I found them to be too bright as well.

[Buckle-meister]

The top of the line Nautilus active speaker also has a 15" driver.

Negative. The flagship Nautilus (http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/label/Model%20Nautilus) uses a 12" driver.

[Joe Schmoe]

I have had the 705s for a few months now. My obsevations so far:
1) Very detailed highs (almost to the point of hearing the individual ridges on brushed cymbals) with a slight trace of brightness, but never fatiguing.
2) Natural midrange, especially on vocals (I can distinguish between the members of Celtic Woman when they sing in chorus.)
3) Clean bass with no traces of muddiness or boominess, and greater extension than one would expect from the published specs.
4) Some of the best imaging/soundstaging that I have yet heard. Their ability to place sounds well outside the space between the speakers is almost uncanny.

Overall, they sound very good with every style of music I have tried them with, but outstanding with jazz. If you love jazz at moderate volumes, I strongly suggest giving them a listen.

[nwarren]

i'm thinking about selling my paradigm studio 60 v.3's to go with either the b&w 705's, 704's, or 805s's. i have been running a rotel arrangement for over a year now and i have always liked how b&w's sounded, i just liked paradigm's prices better. i'll let you all know how they turn out when i get it done.

i'll write a review on my paradigm's as soon as i get new post priveleges.

[tbewick]

In the original post, Jaxvon stated that his usual audio gear consists of a pair of Sony MDR-7506 headphone ['Still, compared to my usual listening tool (Sony MDR-7506 headphones, EQ'd according to WmAx's specs for flat response), the [B&W] 705's seemed bright.' - Jaxvon]. That particular model has been used extensively in the recording industry, as the de facto monitor headphone for many years. They do give a flat response, but many people also find that particular model intolerably bright. I listened through a pair, and I found them to be too bright as well.

I'd like to say that equalizing headphones for flat response is not meant to be a good idea. Due to the way the ear pinnae alter the frequency response of incoming sound, headphones show unnatural colouration when set for a flat frequency response. This is not an issue with loudspeakers, since the pinnae is active, as it would be at a live performance. A flat response is only aimed for in normal loudspeakers.

Negative. The flagship Nautilus uses a 12" driver.

I think it's difficult to know which speaker is the current B&W flagship model! :D My original post where I mentioned the driver size referred to the 800D, which is currently used at Abbey Road EMI.

One other thing I think is worth saying is that what a producer decides to do with a mix will depend on his/her's monitor speakers, and many studios use horn speakers. This is because they have a greater output capacity due to their greater efficiency, but horns are generally considered to be less accurate than the best conventional, non-horn designs.

[WmAx]

I'd like to say that equalizing headphones for flat response is not meant to be a good idea. Due to the way the ear pinnae alter the frequency response of incoming sound, headphones show unnatural colouration when set for a flat frequency response. This is not an issue with loudspeakers, since the pinnae is active, as it would be at a live performance. A flat response is only aimed for in normal loudspeakers.




You would normally be correct, however, I am aware of the variables concerning headphone systems. The only things that are equalized concerning this headphone are 2 inherent resonances of the transducer, as well as an inherent dip at about 205 Hz.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=46352#post46352

-Chris

[WmAx]

Technical Specifications: 705

Description 2-way vented-box system
Dimensions Height: 421mm (16.6 in)
Width: 222mm (8.7 in)
Depth: 319mm (12.6 in)

Net Weight 9.5kg (21 lb)
Freq. Response 46Hz – 25kHz ±3dB on reference axis
Freq. Range -6dB at 43Hz and 50kHz
Sensitivity 89dB spl (2.83V, 1m)
Normal Impedance 8Ω (minimum 4.6Ω)
Power Handling 50W – 120W into 8Ω on unclipped programme
Drive Units Unit 1: ø165mm (6.5 in) woven Kevlar® cone bass/midrange
Unit 2: ø25mm (1 in) alloy dome high-frequency
Unit 3:

Finish Cabinet: Real wood veneers of Maple, Cherrywood, Rosenut, Walnut or Black Ash
Dispersion Description: Within 2dB of reference response
Horizontal: over 40º arc
Vertical: over 10º arc

Harmonic Distortion 2nd and 3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m)
<1% 90Hz – 20kHz
<0.5% 150Hz – 18kHz
Crossover Frequency 3.7kHz
Max. Recommended Cable Impedance 0.1Ω

The specifications above really don't give much information. I can design and build two different speakers that fit within the specifications above, and they will sound very different due to variables I changed between the two that are not encompassed by the specifications above. Perhaps the only useful specifications listed are the nominal impedance and sensitivity, to give you an idea(even these are still too generalized) of what amplifier requirements are optimal. Assuming of course, that these specifications are accurate.

-Chris