Crossover Questions, Answers, Subs and Slopes

supervij · Jul 19, 2005

I don't mean to hijack the thread or anything, but I'm getting mildly confused (says the newbie). I thought I had the whole bass management/crossover thing down, but then people started using the term "rolloff", and I started to get an ice cream headache. So the rolloff is the point where the speaker's performance starts to decrease (for want of a better word), or at least, not reproduce sound quite as linearly, right?

Like my least capable speaker is the Athena C1, which is rated at 60 Hz to 20 kHz +/- 3 dB. So I'm guessing its rolloff would likely be around the 63 to 65 Hz region. And that would mean my crossover should be around the 65 Hz region, right? Which is what I've got it set to, but with all this discussion, I start wondering if I've got things set up badly.

My subwoofer has two dials handily located on the front -- one for the crossover, and one for the volume. The sub cable is plugged into the one marked "Sub In" rather than "Direct In", which means that I control the sub from the sub itself and not the receiver. I've always liked this, because my receiver offers crossovers of 40, 60, 80, 90, 100, 110, 120, 160, and 200 Hz, and I'd have to set it to 80 Hz if I were to do it through the receiver. I prefer the 65 Hz I've got on the sub. But would it be better to plug the sub through the Direct In and take the 80 Hz?

How do I figure out where the rolloff occurs for my various speakers? It doesn't mention anything on Athena's website. I've looked around a bit on the net, and haven't found anything that mentions it. Are there any sites that will tell me the rolloff points for various speakers?

Thanks for any advice you can give me!

cheers,
supervij

mulester7 · Jul 19, 2005

supervij said:
I prefer the 65 Hz I've got on the sub. But would it be better to plug the sub through the Direct In and take the 80 Hz?

..Supervij, try this first....leave the sub at 65 if that's where you like it, because only 40, 60, 80, 90, and higher, can be chosen at the receiver....you have no 65 choice, at the receiver....now, to get 65 to the sub, you gotta' choose higher from the receiver, and the next higher choice at the receiver is 80, so you gotta' choose 80 at the receiver.....

....conversely, if your choice at the sub went down to 60, you RUN to that receiver, haha, and choose 60 also, and you are in the best theoretical and practical situation possible, concerning cleanness from roll-off....you 80 choosers on both are there also.....

j_garcia · Jul 20, 2005

Mulester7,

I checked the bass control vs LFE a while ago, and it does affect all channels, including the LFE.

supervij said:
My subwoofer has two dials handily located on the front -- one for the crossover, and one for the volume. The sub cable is plugged into the one marked "Sub In" rather than "Direct In", which means that I control the sub from the sub itself and not the receiver. I've always liked this, because my receiver offers crossovers of 40, 60, 80, 90, 100, 110, 120, 160, and 200 Hz, and I'd have to set it to 80 Hz if I were to do it through the receiver. I prefer the 65 Hz I've got on the sub. But would it be better to plug the sub through the Direct In and take the 80 Hz?

Well, if any or all of your speakers are set to small, your sub IS using the x-over from the receiver at whatever it is set at, IN ADDITION TO what you have set on the sub's x-over dial. This is probably not the best configuration. Normally, when setting your main (meaning all of them) speakers to small, you want to adjust the sub's x-over to it's max point or bypass it (if available).

Like my least capable speaker is the Athena C1, which is rated at 60 Hz to 20 kHz +/- 3 dB. So I'm guessing its rolloff would likely be around the 63 to 65 Hz region. And that would mean my crossover should be around the 65 Hz region, right? Which is what I've got it set to, but with all this discussion, I start wondering if I've got things set up badly.

No, not exactly. 65hz would be a fairly extreme roll off, that speaker probably still has some limited output at 40Hz or lower. Now, by setting the x-over below what the speaker is capable of, you've already exceeded it's actual ability. As has been covered, a crossover is not a brick wall, it does not just stop all sound below/above that point, there has to be some blending between the two speakers that are being crossed over, otherwise that transition can become more obvious to the listener. Below about 100-120Hz, bass is less localizable so it becomes less of an issue, but this is still in the range of the human voice and can have a noticable affect.

Also, your sub does not control the freqencies sent to the other speakers, even if you have them hooked to the sub. The x-over point on the output of the sub is typically fixed and is not affected by adjusting the x-over knob. This is the case for 95% or more of all subs.

supervij · Jul 20, 2005

mulester, thanks for the clarification.

j_garcia, all my speakers are set to small, but I didn't realize that the sub is using the crossover from both itself AND the receiver. I didn't find that anywhere in researching this stuff.

You say that the speaker, rated at 60 Hz to 20 kHz +/- 3 dB, probably still has some limited output at 40 Hz? Huh? Wha? But it can only dip down to 60 -- that's in the specs. So if a sound at 40 were to be directed to that channel, it would come out maybe distorted, or at extremely low volume. Is that what you mean? I understand that the crossover isn't a brick wall, and that there has to be some blending.

My speakers aren't hooked up to the sub; they're hooked up to the receiver. As is the sub. And you're saying that the crossover dial on the sub does nothing? So why is it even there? That ice cream headache is coming back . . .

So. If I'm understanding correctly this thread so far, I should plug the sub cable into the "Direct In" and set my receiver's crossover for 80 Hz. (When using the "Direct In" the crossover dial and the volume dial are bypassed.)

Although Athena has something to say about that. In their subwoofer's manual, it says, "In music applications, use of the Direct In can cause an overlap in the bass response between the subwoofer and the front speakers, and usually a boomy sound is the result. It is recommended to use the Sub In for systems where both music and home theatre are being utilized."

And since I listen to both music and movies, I've used the "Sub In". But I'll give the "Direct In" and 80 on the receiver a whirl. Thanks for the advice.

cheers,
supervij

shokhead · Jul 20, 2005

I'm wondering,doesnt anybody just play around with different setups and use what sounds best? After reading through the threads it looks like some only go by whats told them. Man i've had mine on large,small,60 and 80,lfe and lfe+main and everything inbetween. Avia setup disc will work wonders.

annunaki · Jul 20, 2005

supervij said:
I don't mean to hijack the thread or anything, but I'm getting mildly confused (says the newbie). I thought I had the whole bass management/crossover thing down, but then people started using the term "rolloff", and I started to get an ice cream headache. So the rolloff is the point where the speaker's performance starts to decrease (for want of a better word), or at least, not reproduce sound quite as linearly, right?

Like my least capable speaker is the Athena C1, which is rated at 60 Hz to 20 kHz +/- 3 dB. So I'm guessing its rolloff would likely be around the 63 to 65 Hz region. And that would mean my crossover should be around the 65 Hz region, right? Which is what I've got it set to, but with all this discussion, I start wondering if I've got things set up badly.

My subwoofer has two dials handily located on the front -- one for the crossover, and one for the volume. The sub cable is plugged into the one marked "Sub In" rather than "Direct In", which means that I control the sub from the sub itself and not the receiver. I've always liked this, because my receiver offers crossovers of 40, 60, 80, 90, 100, 110, 120, 160, and 200 Hz, and I'd have to set it to 80 Hz if I were to do it through the receiver. I prefer the 65 Hz I've got on the sub. But would it be better to plug the sub through the Direct In and take the 80 Hz?

How do I figure out where the rolloff occurs for my various speakers? It doesn't mention anything on Athena's website. I've looked around a bit on the net, and haven't found anything that mentions it. Are there any sites that will tell me the rolloff points for various speakers?

Thanks for any advice you can give me!

cheers,
supervij

65 hz is a good crossover point for your subwoofer. However, how are your main speakers, surrounds and center crossed over at 65hz if you are only running an input to the subwoofer? You would still have to have the crossover in the receiver turned on to take care of your center, mains and surrounds. In that case, you could try setting it to 60hz, as well as 80hz and note any differences. I may be misunderstanding you here.

supervij · Jul 20, 2005

shokhead, I want to understand the theoretical first. How the things work and why they work a certain way. Then I'll tinker. But tinkering too much is like when my girlfriend asks me to help her pick out a perfume. At first, I can distinguish the different scents, but after a while, they tend to blur into one, and I can't quite remember the first scent. In this case, asking advice and going by majority rule is a good starting point, and that's what I'm looking for.

annunaki, I feel like I should be starting a new thread. Even though my questions do involve crossovers, I think I'm taking this thread in a much different direction. Could you and anyone else check out my new thread and help me out? Many thanks.

cheers,
supervij

annunaki · Jul 20, 2005

supervij said:
mulester, thanks for the clarification.

j_garcia, all my speakers are set to small, but I didn't realize that the sub is using the crossover from both itself AND the receiver. I didn't find that anywhere in researching this stuff.

You say that the speaker, rated at 60 Hz to 20 kHz +/- 3 dB, probably still has some limited output at 40 Hz? Huh? Wha? But it can only dip down to 60 -- that's in the specs. So if a sound at 40 were to be directed to that channel, it would come out maybe distorted, or at extremely low volume. Is that what you mean? I understand that the crossover isn't a brick wall, and that there has to be some blending.

My speakers aren't hooked up to the sub; they're hooked up to the receiver. As is the sub. And you're saying that the crossover dial on the sub does nothing? So why is it even there? That ice cream headache is coming back . . .

So. If I'm understanding correctly this thread so far, I should plug the sub cable into the "Direct In" and set my receiver's crossover for 80 Hz. (When using the "Direct In" the crossover dial and the volume dial are bypassed.)

If a speaker is rated at 60hz-20khz +/-3db it will still have some limited output at 40 hz. A ported enclosure, like your Athenas, will have a 24db/oct rolloff. 1 octave would be from 60 hz to 30hz or vice versa.

So, if your speaker was at 100db at 64hz (which appears to be the beginning of the rolloff point) it would be at about 76db at 32hz (which is one octave below 64hz). Or 24db less than 100db at 64hz. At 48hz, or half an octave lower, it would be at about 88db. At 40 hz it would be at 82db or -18db.

Figure in a -12db per octave crossover point of 60 hz, and our speaker would be about -25db or 75db at 40hz. That would be fairly acceptable in this instance.

So, try setting all of your speakers to small with a 60hz crossover point for the sub and the speakers, and run the sub in direct mode. If it does not sound too good, try it again at 80hz.

annunaki · Jul 20, 2005

Hey guys, I split the thread as it was deviating off the topic.

mulester7 · Jul 20, 2005

annunaki said:
If a speaker is rated at 60hz-20khz +/-3db it will still have some limited output at 40 hz. A ported enclosure, like your Athenas, will have a 24db/oct rolloff. 1 octave would be from 60 hz to 30hz or vice versa.

So, if your speaker was at 100db at 64hz (which appears to be the beginning of the rolloff point) it would be at about 76db at 32hz (which is one octave below 64hz). Or 24db less than 100db at 64hz. At 48hz, or half an octave lower, it would be at about 88db. At 40 hz it would be at 82db or -18db.

Figure in a -12db per octave crossover point of 60 hz, and our speaker would be about -25db or 75db at 40hz. That would be fairly acceptable in this instance.

So, try setting all of your speakers to small with a 60hz crossover point for the sub and the speakers, and run the sub in direct mode. If it does not sound too good, try it again at 80hz.

.....Annunaki, this would hold true, ONLY, if your mailman is left-handed, haha.....

.....hey, at least we're thinking, experimenting, tweaking, and letting our ears decide....you guys who have surround receivers with the LFE feature know what you hear, I don't....I only know increased roll-off can give life/realism, or lack of can take it away.....

supervij · Jul 20, 2005

annunaki, thanks for the advice. I tried it with the "Direct In" and 60 Hz crossover on the receiver. At first there was so much bass, I nearly peed my pants! My receiver's YPAO gave me crazy speaker settings: range of +4 to +7 dB for the speakers, and -8.5 dB for the sub! An SPL meter helped in finding less extreme settings (range of -0.5 to +2 dB for the speakers) but I still have to dial down the sub by -5 dB. Even though that -5 causes far far FAR more sound pressure than the other speakers, it seemed okay with the "Giant Robots Attack" scene of Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow. Setting the receiver's crossover to 80 obviously gave more bass, but it sounded even better than at 60, although I know my neighbours are gonna be complaining (living in an apartment building). Thanks so much for the recommendations.

By the way, I'm curious about what you said earlier: "How are your main speakers, surrounds and center crossed over at 65hz if you are only running an input to the subwoofer?" I take that to mean that when using the "Sub In", no crossover can occur. According to Athena's manual, plugging into "Sub In" enables the crossover dial on the sub. Wouldn't setting that dial set a crossover on those speakers? Isn't that what it's for?

cheers,
supervij

Jaycan · Jul 20, 2005

By the way, I'm curious about what you said earlier: "How are your main speakers, surrounds and center crossed over at 65hz if you are only running an input to the subwoofer?" I take that to mean that when using the "Sub In", no crossover can occur. According to Athena's manual, plugging into "Sub In" enables the crossover dial on the sub. Wouldn't setting that dial set a crossover on those speakers? Isn't that what it's for?

Wouldn't setting that dial set a crossover on those speakers?
No

Isn't that what it's for?
The sub's crossover provides a ceiling above which the sub will not reproduce bass notes. You dont want your sub reproducing midrange, because you want it, among other things, to disappear in the room. If the sub plays notes above 120Hz, your ears might be able to pinpoint the source of the bass, and this spoils the integration with your mains. You want the sub's bass to appear as if it is coming from the main speakers. The receiver is the controll device that determines what frquency range is sent to which speakers. When you set the speaker's x over through the receiver, then the bass information below the cutoff point of each speaker is rolled into the sub. So the sub is reproducing bass from your sorrounds, center, and main speakers, below their x over pont, which you set on the receiver.

mulester7 · Jul 20, 2005

You want the sub's bass to appear as if it is coming from the main speakers.

.....I find tears of hope rolling down my cheeks....somebody pass Jaycan a big orange on the house.....

.....and I don't care what else has been said, you dial that sub crossover "as close as possible" to the receiver's cut, and yes, the sub's cut is ineffective above the receiver's cut, and even if only theoretically, you will get more "clean" as per increased roll-off slope.....

.....YesSirReeBuddy, Hillbilly Audiophile Overkill....cheap.......

j_garcia · Jul 20, 2005

Like I said before, things like your room and/or your speaker's response and its response in that room will affect how a 60 or 80Hz x-over sounds, so I agree completely that he best way to go is to try as many options as you can and stick with what sounds best.

mulester7 · Jul 20, 2005

.....(ya'll ever notice how a guy from California will hang in there to the bitter end?).....(tied it up wonderfully, though).....

Jaycan · Jul 20, 2005

somebody pass Jaycan a big orange on the house.....

Howbout a nice new shiny prepro instead, Mulester, say the Anthem D1 for example?

mulester7 · Jul 20, 2005

Jaycan said:
somebody pass Jaycan a big orange on the house.....

Howbout a nice new shiny prepro instead, Mulester, say the Anthem D1 for example?

.....sounds good, Jaycan.....

.....forum members are looking at options....

.....I tried to not stiff responsiblities, which included bicycles....and recreation for all....that sound-system ain't worth your family living somewhere else, buddy......

jaxvon · Jul 20, 2005

If you're wishing for free stuff....why not wish for an FM Acoustics Line Stage...or a Boulder 2010...or a Halcro DM10...

supervij · Jul 21, 2005

Jaycan said:
The sub's crossover provides a ceiling above which the sub will not reproduce bass notes. You dont want your sub reproducing midrange, because you want it, among other things, to disappear in the room. If the sub plays notes above 120Hz, your ears might be able to pinpoint the source of the bass, and this spoils the integration with your mains. You want the sub's bass to appear as if it is coming from the main speakers. The receiver is the controll device that determines what frquency range is sent to which speakers. When you set the speaker's x over through the receiver, then the bass information below the cutoff point of each speaker is rolled into the sub. So the sub is reproducing bass from your sorrounds, center, and main speakers, below their x over pont, which you set on the receiver.

Jaycan, thanks for the explanation. It actually makes sense to my pea-like brain! Come to Toronto and I'll buy you an ice cream.

j_garcia, you're right about room interaction being most important. I played around and I think I like the 80 crossover the best. Thanks for your help.

cheers,
supervij

shokhead · Jul 21, 2005

supervij said:
I don't mean to hijack the thread or anything, but I'm getting mildly confused (says the newbie). I thought I had the whole bass management/crossover thing down, but then people started using the term "rolloff", and I started to get an ice cream headache. So the rolloff is the point where the speaker's performance starts to decrease (for want of a better word), or at least, not reproduce sound quite as linearly, right?

Like my least capable speaker is the Athena C1, which is rated at 60 Hz to 20 kHz +/- 3 dB. So I'm guessing its rolloff would likely be around the 63 to 65 Hz region. And that would mean my crossover should be around the 65 Hz region, right? Which is what I've got it set to, but with all this discussion, I start wondering if I've got things set up badly.

My subwoofer has two dials handily located on the front -- one for the crossover, and one for the volume. The sub cable is plugged into the one marked "Sub In" rather than "Direct In", which means that I control the sub from the sub itself and not the receiver. I've always liked this, because my receiver offers crossovers of 40, 60, 80, 90, 100, 110, 120, 160, and 200 Hz, and I'd have to set it to 80 Hz if I were to do it through the receiver. I prefer the 65 Hz I've got on the sub. But would it be better to plug the sub through the Direct In and take the 80 Hz?

How do I figure out where the rolloff occurs for my various speakers? It doesn't mention anything on Athena's website. I've looked around a bit on the net, and haven't found anything that mentions it. Are there any sites that will tell me the rolloff points for various speakers?

Thanks for any advice you can give me!

cheers,
supervij

If my speakers were rated at 60Hz,i'd set my receiver at 80Hz and of course set all speakers to small. This would be running the single cable from reciever to sub. The lower your speaker goes,the less db its going to play clean. Your speaker rated down to 60 might only be good for 75-80db clean where a sub at 60Hz might be good for 100Hz or more clean db. Rated down to a certain Hz and playing it loud enough to be usefull is another thing.

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