New DVD Rival? China Breaks Out Its Own EVD Spec [Archive]

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Clint DeBoer

11-19-2003, 10:23 PM

According to a <A href="http://www.iht.com/articles/118164.html" target=_blank>Reuters report</A>, China, home to more than a billion people, is acting to develop and present a new DVD rival to the world. Dubbed the EVD, the spec will supposedly result in a new national standard bypassing royalty payments to Japanese DVD makers.

So far only 5 out of the 100 DVD player manufacturers have joined up to develop the new EVD players, including SVA Electronics, one of China's biggest DVD makers. My current opinion is that the world will most likely take a "wait and see" approach. One thing I'm not sure of is how the software providers will respond. China is one of the largest DVD pirating countries in the world and if the new units aren't multi-format compatible (and I think that's the point) then there may not be much incentive top provide content.

[<A href="http://www.iht.com/articles/118164.html" target=_blank>Read the article</A>]

11-20-2003, 01:00 PM

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>hawke : 

According to a Reuters report (http://www.iht.com/articles/118164.html), China, home to more than a billion people, is acting to develop and present a new DVD rival to the world. Dubbed the EVD, the spec will supposedly result in a new national standard bypassing royalty payments to Japanese DVD makers.

So far only 5 out of the 100 DVD player manufacturers have joined up to develop the new EVD players, including SVA Electronics, one of China's biggest DVD makers. My current opinion is that the world will most likely take a "wait and see" approach. One thing I'm not sure of is how the software providers will respond. China is one of the largest DVD pirating countries in the world and if the new units aren't multi-format compatible (and I think that's the point) then there may not be much incentive top provide content.

[Read the article (http://www.iht.com/articles/118164.html)]
who are the other dvd player manufacturers in China?
Are they manufacturers that make any of the dvd players that grace our home theaters and if so,who are they?
Perhaps they should get on the band wagon a.s.a.p.!!!
What do you think?    <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>  <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

 

                         robert j. graham
rgraham1949@hotmail.com

Yamahaluver

11-20-2003, 10:33 PM

China has always been in the forefront of developing a alternative format for DVD and SVCD was one very promising format which never really took off although I have plenty of DVD rips to SVCD in my collection, the quality is almost as good with smaller file size, hope this technology takes off and gives us consumer a choice.

Rob Babcock

11-21-2003, 12:10 AM

I think it'd be a disaster.  Another "choice" is most decidely what we don't need, especially if the only motivation is to allow piracy and bag some royalties in the process.

What need would this product fill that isn't being filled already?  Would the picture or sound be better?  If not, what motivation would I have for buying yet another player?  And why would Hollywood want to support it?  Hollywood would certainly be very wary of it (as they were with DVD) until it was proven to possess some heavy duty encryption, something China is legendarily lax about.

When DIVX came out for its brief "me-too" grab at the cash, it probably slowed DVD market penetration by a couple years at least.  DVD is too established now to be much threatened by this, IMO, at least in America.

Would retailers want to make shelf space to return to the bad old days of double inventory?  Yeah, they love triple inventory-ing SACD,DVD-A & CD...

And what about SACD & DVD-A?  Both hindered by copyright concerns and lack of compatibity between the two, besides the fact that they split an already small niche market of people passionate about good sound.

If it doesn't significantly improve on DVD performance, what's the point?  

Besides, once Blu-Ray hits the shores of the USA, it'll be moot eventually.

Again, just my opinion.

11-21-2003, 01:45 AM

This is purely political mixed with extreme nationalism which is deep in every Chinese' blood/DNA. * The new format will definitely not make it outside of China. *Even within China, it will take off ONLY if the new EVD format is very easy to be mass produced by illigal underground operations, like VCD. *But this time it may not be that easy since, first, there is the well established DVD hardware-dirt cheap/software-abundant/very good quality--unlike VCD; and secondly, the copyright law is much more enforced in China since it joined WTO last year, so there will be a good chance there are some kind of coding scheme built in EVD players/media that makes illigal copy almost impossible.

In summary, my gut feeling is, this will be another 'new format' that will go nowhere. *Historically anything initiated by the government seldomly works.

Abe

Yamahaluver

11-21-2003, 07:07 AM

The reason for all this is due to the phenomenal cost of DVD software in other parts of the world like China, India and rest of Asia, an average DVD costs around $25 here which is a lot and this due to dispropotionate pricing across the globe just like PC software. To the Chinese and the rest, this is an attempt maybe not significant to bridge the price barrier, I dont think this would ever make it to the west but in can take off like hot potatoes in Asia including the far east. This would at least bring movies to the masses and generate sales when the DVD sales is almost negligible in China and India and would officialy go towards eliminating pirated video.

At least unlike us Indians, the Chinese are fiercely nationalistic and this is a trend which is quite positive and speaking for nationalism, cant say average Americans arent nationalistic either, they all rally behind their countries policies, good or bad.

11-21-2003, 05:45 PM

I am Chinese in origin so I can afford to be a little 'harsh' when critizing without offending too many (13billion) people :-)

As for EVD vs. DVD, the hardware cost is negligible comparing to that of the software. *It is the copy right of the movies that is the most expensive. * Can't see any benefit of EVD in that territory. *Say, making a EVD disc of "Indiana Jones" movie will not be less expensive than making a DVD disc. *

For Chinese consumers to adopt EVD, there will have to be enough movie releases on EVD discs in the first place AND cheap. *How can they accomplish that?

Abe

Yamahaluver

11-21-2003, 10:38 PM

abe,

VCD is quite popular format in India and China and between over 2 billion people if the EVD format takes off thats all they need to generate money.

Rob Babcock

11-21-2003, 11:00 PM

Without opening a big can of worms, politically, I'd say Nationalism, as a philosophy, is a mixed bag at best. *If one feels that moving towards "one world" is progress, nationalism is the opposite. *Patriotism is good, to a point, but carried too far it leads to further polarization and misunderstandings between people. *Should Americans really beat the drum and wave the flag, no matter what? *Should anyone?

End of rant!

Clint DeBoer

11-21-2003, 11:09 PM

I'm still thinking software will be the real key. Unles they want to just watch hong kong movies, teh studios will have to decide whether they want to capitulate and send their titles to China in EVD format. My guess is no way, unless the market ramps up first or somebody cuts a deal (government cash infusion?)

I just don't get why they aren't making a grab for the next HDDVD spec instead of taking a step backwards - who knows, maybe it is an advanced DVD spec, but I'm guessing it won't be the leap forward we are expecting.

petermwilson

11-24-2003, 10:15 AM

Hi,
As many of you have already confirmed by your posts that the old adage "software sells hardware" will continue because it's just common sense.

That said, just getting a small piece of a 13billion market forgives alot of production costs.

The west will wait for hd dvd before buying "The Fifth Element" again, is my opinion.

Peter m.

Khellandros66

11-24-2003, 10:16 PM

I think that if Companies adopt any new format for CDs it should the Playback of WMV 9 files with up to 7.1 Audio and 1920x1080i/p *and output the audio via coaxial MPEG/PCM. *And output the video via RGB/DVi or up to 720p over Component video

Another option is to have a pay to download movies in an encrypted .avi/mpg4 file with DD 5.1 Download burn and it auto deletes after three burns or three shares over winmx, kazaa, etc.

~Bob

av_phile

11-27-2003, 05:38 AM

I read in the news article that the propsoed EVD format is a direct governmnet response from the copyright requirmeents behind the DVD encryption technology which cost too much according to the CHinese. *If even half the chinese and indian population patronizes the new format, that's a lot compared to the rest of the world who patronize DVD. *And any DVD sales loss must be blamed on the copyright owners who think everyone on this planet earns as much as the average American.

Yamahaluver

11-27-2003, 10:59 AM

Welcome av_phile,

Very well put, remember, when no one in the west was interested in VCD format, it was and is still a rage all over Asia and even middle east, they were cheap to manufacture and offered reasonable quality as good as Hi-Fi videos and were more durable than tapes which in hot, humid weather would only last for a short while.

av_phile

11-27-2003, 11:35 PM

Thanks Yamahaluver,

I live in the Philippines and yes, VCD sales are still strong and doing well.  A VCD cost a tenth of a typical DVD price.  Goes to show that the third world countries are not the market for DVD which is priced almost a fifith of the monthly minimum wage.  I think in the US a newly released blockbuster in DVD cost less than a 5% of the minimum wage.

11-30-2003, 05:34 AM

I completely agree with the arguments av_phile and yl put above. *The cost of DVD is indeed very high. Even here is the US it is not trivial, e.g., $20 on average for new releases. *I don't own many DVD's myself since I can't justify the cost, instead I rent them from local video stores.

But EVD won't solve the problem!

Because EVD or VCD, if produced legally, *will be as costly as DVDs since most of the cost come from copyrights not manufacturing. * DVDs of local movies, be it Chinese or India, should be reasonably priced (my guess though). *

So where is the advantage of cost of EVD over DVD?

Unless, Hollywood movies can be easily produced on EVD illegally by individuals or underground operations then there is enconomic advantage of EVD over DVD.

Abe

Yamahaluver

11-30-2003, 06:34 AM

abe,

Consider this, India anually produces around 784 movies which is way more than Hollywood or any other film industry does and Indian movies rule local as well as middle eastern and African markets and are now penetrating SE Asian markets as well, since the Chinese presence here is very prominent, if EVD endears itself to the Indian movie industry, it would generate enough cash to surivive.

av_phile

12-01-2003, 12:14 AM

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Guest : I completely agree with the arguments av_phile and yl put above. *The cost of DVD is indeed very high. Even here is the US it is not trivial, e.g., $20 on average for new releases. *I don't own many DVD's myself since I can't justify the cost, instead I rent them from local video stores.

But EVD won't solve the problem!

Because EVD or VCD, if produced legally, *will be as costly as DVDs since most of the cost come from copyrights not manufacturing. * DVDs of local movies, be it Chinese or India, should be reasonably priced (my guess though). *

So where is the advantage of cost of EVD over DVD?

Unless, Hollywood movies can be easily produced on EVD illegally by individuals or underground operations then there is enconomic advantage of EVD over DVD.

Abe
VCD IS being produced LEGALLY in my country and marketed roughly 15% of the average DVD,  P150 vs P1000, (about $3 vs $18) respectively.   Wait till you hear about the pirated VCDs (that are exact duplicates of the orig) which are only about P50/title or a third of the legal VCD price.  That's less than a dollar per title.  (Pirated DVDs here are about $1.50 per title!!!  And they are excellent identical copies mostly without the special features.)

You're right Abe,  EVD won't solve much of the problem in this part of the world.  Especially  if Hollywood won't support it.  But if India and CHina do, we're talking a lot of sales lost had the local titles been encoded on DVD.

I guess my point is this.  It is a great error for Hollywood  to claim they are losing sales from pirates who thrive mostly in CHina, India and SE Asia markets..The market for VCD or any format that promises its price points like EVD is not and can hardly be the market for DVD.  I know of mid-income folks who would never shift to DVD if not for those cheap pirated titles and china-made generic players.  I read somewhere that the market for illegal music and software is more than a couple of billions of dollars in Hongkong but the market for legal software is even less than a hundred million there.  Had Hollywood and Microsoft priced themselves equitablly and socially, they would have gotten the billions instead of mere millions.   And there would not be any pirates laughing all the way to the bank.  They should learn from the CHinese businessmen who would price their produce cheap and reap the most market reach.  

If EVD doesn't take off, there would be more opportunities for pirates to thrive.  I guess as long as the DVD's are priced as if everyone is rich, there will always be "Captain Hooks" and "Robin Hoods" out there ready to take adbvantage and create the need from the masses who can't afford otherwise.

12-01-2003, 02:46 PM

av_phile,

Thanks for the information of hard numbers. I was only guessing  how much VCDs and DVDs would cost in Asia.  I have a question, how much does it cost for local (not Hollywood) movies on VCD and DVD, legal AND illegal, over there?

Abe

Clint DeBoer

12-01-2003, 04:57 PM

I wonder if some of this has also got to do with licensing fees for the DVD discs themselves, which is a Japanese product.

informational link (http://www.electronics.globalsources.com/am/article_id/9000000044835/page/showarticle?action=GetArticle)

av_phile

12-01-2003, 09:18 PM

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Guest : av_phile,

Thanks for the information of hard numbers. I was only guessing *how much VCDs and DVDs would cost in Asia. *I have a question, how much does it cost for local (not Hollywood) movies on VCD and DVD, legal AND illegal, over there?

Abe
Abe,

Local movies (in the Philippines) on DVD are legally priced somewhere in between the regular VCD and regular DVDs (P350, or about $6). *But they are awful, with little or no special features and look like mere VHS transfers. *

There are very vew local movies that are on pirated DVDs. *The ones i saw sell the same as pirated Hollywood DVDs. *But pirated ones on VCD abound and they sell at the same price also as pirated hollywood stuff on VCD.

av_phile

12-01-2003, 09:35 PM

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>hawke : I wonder if some of this has also got to do with licensing fees for the DVD discs themselves, which is a Japanese product.

informational link (http://www.electronics.globalsources.com/am/article_id/9000000044835/page/showarticle?action=GetArticle)
I have the impression, rightly or wrongly, that the manufacturers of DVD players have to pay license fees or royalties to the DVD consortium of japanese and american manufaturers like Sony, Philips, IBM, etc. *

On the other side, DVD discs makers have to pay the royalties for the MPEG technology used, don't know to whom. *THis, in addiiton to royalties to the artists and/or movie producers.

All these royalties are sidestepped by the pirates. *

But it makes me wonder *what portions of a newly released $18 DVD disc goes to royalties and which goes to production/marketing/distribution *and which goes to profit mark-ups. *If as the article says only $0.05 goes to technology royalties, and if my information is right that only a few cents goes to movie moguls, then a pirated DVD that is virtually identical to the orig, costing only $1.20/disc at the stands here in the Phils. must already cover for the production and distribution plus profit mark-ups for the pirates and its sellers. *The pirated DVDs may not have the slick packaging of the originals, but how much do that cost? *Makes me wonder where the rest of the $18.00 go. *Let me guess: *Corporate Greed?

Clint DeBoer

12-01-2003, 09:57 PM

In bulk, DVDs cost less than $1.30/ea packaged in Amaray cases with full color inserts.

av_phile

12-01-2003, 10:16 PM

Thanks Hawke.

Now I understand how movie moguls can drive around in chauffeured limousines.   <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

abe

12-05-2003, 04:23 AM

av_phile, *

Thanks for the info on prices. *So here is the bulk part:

legal DVD: * *local movie=$6, *Hollywood movie=$18

illegal DVD: * all=$1.2

Let's go back to the original question, that is why EVD will benefit the consumers economically. *Only part EVD can save on a DVD is the production part, i.e., the cost of the blank disc+writing data+packaging+distribution =<$1.2. *So here is price comparisons by assuming EVD production cost is ZERO:

LEGAL: * * local movie *DVD vs. EVD = $6 vs. $4.8
* * ** ** * * *hollywood * *DVD vs. EVD = $18 vs. $16.8

Don't see big saving here for sure! *And this is exactly my point that, by introducing a new format EVD, consumers DON'T gain benefits economically. * So this is more of a political issue than economical. *

Don't want to go into illegal copies here since they are NOT affected by this EVD at all.

Abe

pam

01-02-2004, 06:07 AM

H

There was Beta and VHS. Beta was more expensive and better... VHS won.

There was PC and Apple. IBM was an open box where everyone could connect and Apple was totally proprietary. Apple was the best for 17 years (from 1981 till 1998). They have only 10% of the market.

The was Solaris, Aix, Windows and Linux. Linux is getting to be the most popular for server now. After that we will see it come to the PC world (already there).

Now there is DVD and EVD. I understand that all studios are now backing DVD... On the long run I would almost always bet on some less expensive, open source version.

Over the time open solution (PC, Linux) wins over the proprietary version (Apple, Windows).

Who wants to pay someone to copy something to sell it.

PS Sony did you understood that (Yes I understand, SACD seems better that DVD-A, so was Beta over VHS)?