Is Dedicated Center Channel Really Necessary?

How crucial really is having a dedicated center channel? In my current setup, the overall sound appears better when I play center channel information through my large, full range mains, especially with multichannel music. I know the center channel is supposed to fix the dialogue to the screen, but how many HT setup really require this? Wouldn't you need to have a very large room, with wide, off axis seating, and with the speaker behind the screen, to really make the center channel speaker indispensable? It is possible that I need to upgrade my center speaker (currently Axiom VP150) to better match my mains, but I'm not sure I buy into the "timbre matching" philosophy. Maybe I need to get me a whole box of cutips!

Jaycan said:

How crucial really is having a dedicated center channel? In my current setup, the overall sound appears better when I play center channel information through my large, full range mains, especially with multichannel music. I know the center channel is supposed to fix the dialogue to the screen, but how many HT setup really require this? Wouldn't you need to have a very large room, with wide, off axis seating, and with the speaker behind the screen, to really make the center channel speaker indispensable? It is possible that I need to upgrade my center speaker (currently Axiom VP150) to better match my mains, but I'm not sure I buy into the "timbre matching" philosophy. Maybe I need to get me a whole box of cutips!

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IMO you need a center. It may well be that you have something set wrong. What do you mean by better?

The setup is ok. I have the center playing small with bass going to mains. When I select "no center" option through receiver menu, movie dialogue appears more distinct, fuller. There are times when most of the sound in movie material is being output through the center. Just check out the relative SPL through each speaker during actual playback. Maybe what I'm hearing is my mains (Legacy focus 20/20s) doing a better job of playing fullrange center info, and maybe the receiver is not doing such a great job in coupling the axiom center above 80Hz to the legacies.

Jaycan,

In IMO the center channel should be the best and beefiest speaker in your array. Around 80% of the sound across the front comes from the center. If your center is smaller than your Left/Right, they may be overpowering it. I also don't like sending the bass to the mains. I feel it muddies the front imaging and really degrades the sound. A dedicated sub is the best way to go. Also the speaker drivers should be of equal size with crossovers that match or are very close to matching. These little things make all the difference in things gliding smoothly from left to right and vice versa.

[/QUOTE]In IMO the center channel should be the best and beefiest speaker in your array. Around 80% of the sound across the front comes from the center. If your center is smaller than your Left/Right, they may be overpowering it.

It is logistically difficult to beef up the center speaker because of placement issues. People struggling with the WAF might get put out to pasture if UPS drops off another monolith to be planted sqarely between the first 2. Thats why there is so much compromise on the center enclosure/size. I think it probably is a good idea to match center drivers and xovers as mutch as possible, and this of course is possible with most HT speaker manufacturers. In my case that would mean acquiring the legacy silver screen II, which uses identical midbass drivers, tweeters, and xovers as the Focus 2020s. I guess I'm not convinced of how critical a need this is. I know it is bordering on HT heresy, but that is just my skeptical/cynical tendencies.

You're comparing apples to oranges here.

It's only natural that using a smaller center with killer mains will degrade the overall performance, particularly since most of the overall sound of a HT is derived from the center channel.

Try this with a center that matches your mains. Your opinion might change.

a little off toppic, how dose your focur 20/20 sound.

You can get good performance without a center, as you've discovered. But you'll never realize the true performance potential your HT is capable of without a top-notch & well placed center channel speaker. At least, that's my experience.

I appreciate all the input, maybe I'll spring for the center speaker upgrade after all.

a little off toppic, how dose your focur 20/20 sound.

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I love the sound. Big, brash, powerful, good with both music and HT. They are efficient but sound better with an industrial size power amp.

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I have found the same experience in my set up so I generally listen in four channel. My center cost a cool grand (Vandersteen VCC signature1) and I doubt it is not adequate. I think that if your mains are good and they image well and are well setup AND you are in the sweet spot, the center channel detracts from the sound and image regarding concert DVDs and movies. If there is a large group watching (more than two) then I turn on the center.

I spoke to Richard Vandersteen about this and he understood what I meant. He did however say that if I upgraded to the VCC5 for another $1200 I would appreciate a difference. I think he knows what I'm talking about but I wasn't prepared to part with that kind of scratch for a center channel. Now perhaps if I could demo one...

I do think in theory that timber matching makes sense especially for the tweeters and mids. Just how closely matched is open for debate. Richeard Hardesty in the Audio Perfectionist has said the same thing about centers so we are not alone in this idea.

The ideal would be to have three of whatever you're using as mains. Yeah, good luck with that, in most rigs. First, just buying a 3rd one could be hard; I'm not sure if Legacy would sell you a single Focus 20/20, but it would be over $3k even if they did! And that would force you to place your screen pretty high (aren't the Focus nearly 5' tall?).

I have used all identical speakers (5 of 'em) plus a pair of parametrically EQ'd subs for music, and it was awe-inspiring. But I don't have a practical way to leave things set up like that all the time. Perhaps when I move to my next house, hopefully later this summer, I'll be able to accommodate such a configuration.

In summary, if you can't afford/accomodate the very best center available for your mains, then perhaps you're better off with just four, provided you watch movies alone or everyone can fit into the relatively small sweet spot. For the best possible performance I suggest a really top-flight center, but obviously YMMV.

(aren't the Focus nearly 5' tall?).

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Yepper. 4'8''. And each weigh exactly what I do (185lbs).

This is a very interesting subject. The idea of a demo is great, if I could pull it off. It will have to come down to probably acquiring the silver screen II, which is the matching center to the focus. I probably will try to pick up one off Audiogon if possible since they create a pretty big dent in the bank account new. Plus I've just bought the Snell ICS Sub24 MKII which should be here in a couple of days, and it might be wise to let the dust settle a little before another major speaker purchase. I appreciate everyone's input.

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One thing to consider is an acoustically transparent screen. Supposedly some of the newer screens are woven, not perfed, and offer extreme transparency (at least compared to the older perfed kind). They're not exactly cheap (a grand and a half) but could be just what you're looking for.

I definately envy your rig! I'll probably buy new speakers this summer, but I'll be choosing from models at about 1/2 the sticker as yours!

my vote is for no centre channel.

i'm music first and foremost, and in my 4.0 setup i find i enjoy the 'magic' of an instrument located in space between my two speakers more than i do the instument comming directly out of either of the left or right speakers. likewise when there is a centre there i find myself looking at the speaker to locate the sound which is not as enjoyable for me as trying to locate the sound/instrument in the field of open spake between the L&R speakers.

also, with a centre one usually has the sound located bellow or above the screen(unlesss using a projector and transparrent screen). without a centre i find my dynaudios create a sharp centre immage in the middle of my screen, which is what we all want.

cheers

bevan

One thing to consider is an acoustically transparent screen. Supposedly some of the newer screens are woven, not perfed, and offer extreme transparency (at least compared to the older perfed kind). They're not exactly cheap (a grand and a half) but could be just what you're looking for.

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One of the "problems" with audiophilia and a HT setup is that you keep trying "to get it right", pursuing AV nirvana, and before you realize, you are spending way more than you had originally intended. Yes, I have thought about going to front projection, and have a retractable screen which would lower in front of the current setup-Samsung 61" DLP. The best solution probably would be a woven screen with another tower behind it, and I'm pretty sure that legacy would sell a single tower, however we're now talking about several thousands $, and I'm not sure if the new higher gain woven screens are available yet in retractable form. Overall, right now I do enjoy my 4.1/6.1 setup, and can postpone making a center channel decision until I can demo a real good setup in a dealer showroom somewhere.

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Dedicated Center is definitely better.

A well mixed 5.1 soundtrack will always sound better with a dedicated center.

If the track isnt well mixed you can raise and lower the center channel as needed.

Something isn't set right if your think your 4 channel is better than your 5 channel.

Actually, the problem is that my main towers (Legacy) have a very different acoustic signature from my center speaker (Axiom VP150), so much so that for some material, the center channel draws too much attention because of the difference, and folding the center output into the LR mains somewhat solves this problem. This was not a problem when I had Axiom M80 LR mains. Maybe it is not the best solution, but it is one I'm content to live with for now until I hear a properly calibrated and matched front array. I assembled my whole system through internet purchases, and as a resullt, have had to make adjustments after using the hardware. [OFF TOPIC-For example, the sub I bought (Vandy 2WQ) was a bad match for my system, and I have just upgraded (I think it is an upgrade) to the Snell ICS Sub24 MKII]

one more thing,

foregoing a centre lets you spend 50% more on the front two. in most peoples price range this will buy a very noticable improvement in sound quality.

b

Maybe I need to get me a whole box of cutips!

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Do not put Q-Tips in your ears!

I wish I possessed the fabled golden ears of some audiophiles, but alas, my powers of auditory discernment are mediocre at best. I thought maybe a good middle ear canal housecleaning might help. Which method do suggest?