Poor Customer Service Experience with Paradigm

[Brianphoto]

I have to post to convey my experience with customer service at Paradigm Electronics. I had purchased $8500.00 worth of Studio Reference speakers including a Servo 15v1 subwoofer. After 1 month the sub developed a an internal rattle which could not be fixed by my dealer so it was sent to Paradigm and they sent me a new unit. The new unit had obvious defects in the cabinet, chipped wood around the driver opening as well as 2 places where the laminate had separated from the wood. I sent the sub back to Paradigm and after more than 2 months their response was the sub had water damage and all they were willing to do was "fill" the areas and send it back to me. They sent me photos of the repair job and I told them that it was not acceptable to me. Since the v1 was no longer made they said there was nothing they would do. I offered to pay the difference for a new v3 model but they would not consider that as an option and just sent the sub back to me. I have posted pictures of the sub at www.prophotographics.ca/paradigm.htm (http://www.prophotographics.ca/paradigm.htm) for people to see what they have sent me. Their final comment was to leave the grill on and nobody will notice. In my opinion this is just not good enough. This is an expensive piece of equipment and I think I deserve to be treated better. So if you are thinking about purchasing Paradigm equipment, go ahead, if you don't mind dealing with lousey customer service when you need it! Come on Paradigm, remember it is us, the little consumer who keeps you in business. I don't know where to go from here so if anyone has any comments or suggestion I would appreciate it.....

[jimmit]

It's unfortunate you've had this bad experience with Paradigm. I have been reading audio fora for the past year and I have to say that your bad experience with respect to Paradigm is the only one I've read or heard about. As a Paradigm owner, I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of response you get from others, if any, who may have had similar experiences.

I tend to think that your dealer, if he wanted your future business, could have taken a more active role -- perhaps taking the sub back himself and selling it as used gear; then giving you credit toward a new one.

I looked at the photos and while the "chips" around the driver don't look that bad to me, I have to agree that the wood finishing job was not first rate.

How does the "new" sub sound?

[3db]

If you should post this in more forums such as Audioreview, Sound&Vision Magazine, Audio Asylum etc. and then let Paradigm know what you did. Whatever you do, don't give up!! maybe the folks here know how to get past the customer service person that is being an a??h?le and get you onto somebody different.

[Shinerman]

I really think you should get your dealer involved. They will have much more pull than you. And, they sold it to you and should have some responsibility. You spent a lot of money with them and they should understand that no "Audiophile" is ever content with their system and will likely spend more.

Shinerman

[cornelius]

Sorry to hear about your experience. With the competition that Paradigm faces, one would think that they'd take care of their customers better - especially one who invested a lot, and acted reasonably.

My advice would be to see what your local dealer can do about cutting you deal on another brand (I had some problems with my turntable, and my dealer offered a free and substantial upgrade). If they can't help you, then think of it as an opportunity to make the move to better sound in your home. There are many speaker designers out there who would love your business, and can provide much improved sound to what Paradigm has to offer.

[Brianphoto]

I agree with you that this is probably not typical of Paradigm and I too am very interested in hearing if there are any more people who have had any problems with them. I checked the Better Business website and they do have another complaint against the company for waranty issues. The chips around the driver opening do look worse in real life. $2000.00 for a sub is alot of money and I expect it to look perfect, not to cover it up with the grill as they suggested to me.

[HookedOnSound]

I have to post to convey my experience with customer service at Paradigm Electronics. I had purchased $8500.00 worth of Studio Reference speakers including a Servo 15v1 subwoofer. After 1 month the sub developed a an internal rattle which could not be fixed by my dealer so it was sent to Paradigm and they sent me a new unit. The new unit had obvious defects in the cabinet, chipped wood around the driver opening as well as 2 places where the laminate had separated from the wood. I sent the sub back to Paradigm and after more than 2 months their response was the sub had water damage and all they were willing to do was "fill" the areas and send it back to me. They sent me photos of the repair job and I told them that it was not acceptable to me. Since the v1 was no longer made they said there was nothing they would do. I offered to pay the difference for a new v3 model but they would not consider that as an option and just sent the sub back to me. I have posted pictures of the sub at www.prophotographics.ca/paradigm.htm (http://www.prophotographics.ca/paradigm.htm) for people to see what they have sent me. Their final comment was to leave the grill on and nobody will notice. In my opinion this is just not good enough. This is an expensive piece of equipment and I think I deserve to be treated better. So if you are thinking about purchasing Paradigm equipment, go ahead, if you don't mind dealing with lousey customer service when you need it! Come on Paradigm, remember it is us, the little consumer who keeps you in business. I don't know where to go from here so if anyone has any comments or suggestion I would appreciate it.....

Just to clarify, you purchased the system new from dealer?

[Tallcane]

Brian, are they alleging you are the cause of the defect and not them? Did you cause the defect? How long did you have the product before making your claim?

If it is clearly their fault then I think you should argue in a letter to them that they have a duty to replace this product as they sold you a damaged product. I would not give up on this issue.

[Brianphoto]

Yes the system was purchased form a dealer new. Paradigm claims there must have been water damage. If there was there would be water stains on the cone or elsewhere. It is just an excuse to get away with a repair and not a replacement. I have sent many emails to them and this is the only action I have left, to let others know about my experience. I wouldn't want others to go through the same.

[Tempest]

If I were to guess, the replacement sub they sent you was something that didn't pass final inspection and they thought they could just take the opportunity to pass it off. I would be pissed as much as you! :mad:

I would stay on this until you get what you want. Get the dealer involved and make enough waves to get the attention of someone in the company who cares about their national/global reputation.

The fact that they made a lame attempt to repair the sub (I could have done a better job...really) is one thing. The fact that they wouldn't let you upgrade to one of their newer models is astonishing! That is customer disservice. :confused:

[Brianphoto]

Tempest, thank you for your support. It is very difficult to take on big business by yourself and you can be assured I will keep going until I get satisfaction. I will also support any other consumers here who have problems with big corporations. A simple solution would have been to let me pay the difference for a new model, is this unfair or too much to ask?

[Tempest]

No, it is not asking too much to ask for the option to upgrade. Jeez, they would be getting more of your money and keeping a customer happy. Someone at Paradigm is not thinking clearly and hopefully, you will reach someone there who sees the bigger picture.

[cornelius]

"A simple solution would have been to let me pay the difference for a new model, is this unfair or too much to ask?"

No, that's why I mentioned how you acted reasonably!

I was just thinking the same thing as Tempest. Sounds like you're dealing with an intern. Although I'm not at all a fan of Paradigm's sound, I am surprised by this.

[Brianphoto]

Exactly, I told them of my plans to upgrade ot studio 100's and move my 40's to the back. This means giving Paradigm another 2000.00+. I still would do it if this can get resolved. I have no problem with the sound quality from the Paradigms.

[Mort Corey]

Don't know where you're located, but you might want to contact your state department of consumer affairs. I filed a complaint against a major global manufacturer about a problem I was having and within two weeks had a phone call from the head of the US division. That was after the e-mail, telephone route. Costs nothing.

Mort

[cornelius]

I hope you can delve a little further and find someone helpful. I know a lot of people like Paradigm, so it would be a drag for someone interested in them to not to give them a try, due to bad customer support.

[Brianphoto]

Cornelius, I hope so too as I am a fan of Paradigm as well. But customer service has to go along with it and this is my first dealings with them for service.

[Brianphoto]

UPDATE: Just received an email from Mark Aling at Paradigm. He informs me that I should take the sub to a cabinet maker and have it repaird. He said they may cover the cost of the repair providing I supply an estimate first! Can you believe that? Can you imagine getting a cabinet maker to take your $2000.00 sub apart and try to repair it? Anyway, at least they are talking to me again, maybe they are reading the posts here. Thanks again for all of your support thus far....

[gene]

Brian;

I am sorry to hear that, but at least its something. I never heard of a speaker company doing that, but I guess we learn something new every day.

PS. If you do go this route, I recommend taking the woofer and amp out before bringing it to the cabinet person. Also veryify if Paradigm will still honor the warranty on this product thereafter.

[Tempest]

Not that you want to go this route, but a really talented craftsman can repair the flaws to the point were you won't be able to see them without a magnifying glass. :cool:

I would still look for better customer service than that…it still throws the ball back in your court. However, getting it repaired locally will take a lot less time and you are in control of the situation.

You will need to go over Mark Aling’s head if you want to get more/better options.

[rr2465]

Hi Brian,

I don't understand why the dealer (local shop) won't help you out? If you were dissatisfied with your purchase, don't they have a return policy? Maybe I'm missing something....

[ducker]

No idea if you're just dealing with one CS rep there... but I wouldn't stand for the story you're getting. If need be I'd stay on the phone and speak to their manager or their manager. I'm very suprised your shop didn't help back you up. If you haven't yet talk to that shop and ask them if THEY would be intersting in allowing you to ugprade to a better sub. They might be more likely to. Then they could sell your old sub, or send it back to the distribution and tell them that the product arrived damaged to them...

Gah... just reading this whole process aggravates me!

[Brianphoto]

Yes this whole process is aggravating. I have spoken to several people at Paradigm and they say the decision had come from the owner. Does anyone know who the owner is and have an emaol address? Would certainly love to reach him direct. As for the dealer, they sent it back to Paradigm for me and after waiting over 2 months for a response gave me the number and a contact person for Paradigm. It is a manufacturing issue that has to be dealt with by Paradigm.

[TjMV3]

How patheic!

Paradigm should be ashamed of themselves!

I can't believe that the only option they are giving you, is to take the cabinet to someone and have it fixed..........and "maybe".......just "maybe" if you're a good boy, they'll cover the labor.......IF the estimate is "reasonable" to them.

Why in the world should you go through such time-consuming, stress-enducing trouble?!?!?!?!?!

If I were you, I'd return the whole lot of Paradigm gear and demand my money back. Forget about the dealer, I wouldn't even buy a stick of gum from him......ever again.

But you know what, I'm not at all surprised by this. From personal experience, I know both Anthem and Paradigm are very helpful when you have questions about their gear, prior to buying.

But after you've bought their gear, they don't want a whole lot to do with you.

Apparently, and I Quote..... "All Power Amps have loud and annoying transformer noise" as our Anthem amps do. So any amp you buy will sound the same." End Quote :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Brianphoto]

TjMV3, I agree with you whole heartily. It is time comsuming and stressful to fight these big companies but I am not giving up on this one. Sounds like you have a bit of experience with this type of thing...

[Nick250]

I not sure where you are, but here in Massachusetts we have a law called "93A". If a merchent sells you a product that does not performed as it should and the merchant does not make it right, then the merchant would be required to pay tripple damages to the customer. Your state may have a similar law.

[TjMV3]

TjMV3, I agree with you whole heartily. It is time comsuming and stressful to fight these big companies but I am not giving up on this one. Sounds like you have a bit of experience with this type of thing...

Yep, I wasn't too happy with how helpful and polite they were before purchase, and then told me in a polite way that they wouldn't do anything about the transformer noise, after purchase.

Basically it came down to, them saying.....they wouldn't do anything and if I had someone else look at it, it would render the Warranty null and void. Not to mention the guy I spoke with tried to convince me the noise was normal for the amp and that every amp, by every manufactor had the same noise. This was not just a standard transformer hum.

Anyway, I found someone locally to fix it, on my own. Then I washed my hands of all Paradigm and Anthem gear. No more for me.

[20to20K]

When I bought my Polk gear last summer (~$2800), I came VERY close to getting the setup I really wanted...the Paradigm Studio Series(~$4200)
because I saw them as a noticible upgrade...but it was just a little bit too much green at the time.

I've had nothing but a positive experience with both the Polk manufacturer and my Tweeter dealer addressing a few minor issues.

Now I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on the upgrade to the Paradigms (which isn't carried by Tweeter), and then I see this...

I think any reasonable individual consumer knows that any product that is manufactured and sold to the public has some risk of defect or flaw no matter how expensive or high quality it's supposed to be. What's important to that consumer is how that manufacturer deals with those subsequent problems. I find the responses are generally thrown into two self-serving, but very different philosophies:

1) This is a valued customer who we want to continue a future business relationship with so we are going to go as far as we reasonably can to satisfy him and address his concern so he'll buy more of our products in the future.

2) Hey, we've got his money already so screw him! Throw him a bone that may or may not address his problem. After that, tell him to talk to the hand.

I'm curious which "side" Paradigm ends up in on this issue.

[cornelius]

hey 20to20 - As I've mentioned before, I'm not a Paradigm fan. People's tastes are one thing, so if listeners here like the sound, that's fine. But in this world of disposable goods (my parents still have kitchen appliances from the 50s that kick a**! - my DVD player lasted a year), I hate to see my fellow audio friends get shafted from a hi-fi company.

There are many other great companies out there! If something turns around for Brianphoto, then you're back on track, otherwise enjoy the search for something different, it's part of the fun!

[LEVESQUE]

My Paradigm Servo-15v1 did start humming after 3 years of abuse. My dealer send it to Paradigm, and it came back still humming. So my dealer took it back, gave me 100% credit for it (even after 3 years!) and sold me a brand new Signature Servo at the COST.

3 weeks ago, my carpenter did pass trough a woofer on my Signature S8 while working in my HT. I called my dealer, and got a brand new one for free by Fedex in 2 days!

Each time I want to do something particular with my Anthem D1, I just send them an e-mail and they usually include it in the next firmware upgrade. I have a projector with an odd native resolution, and Anthem tech support did send me an e-mail to talk about and include that "special" resolution in the scaler of the upcoming hardware upgrade! Do you know any other company doing something like that?

That's what a dealer/manufacturer has to do to keep a good and loyal customer. I think your problem here is your dealer. He obviously don't know how to treat a good customer spending good money in his store. I really think you should have a serious talk with him.

Just my 2 cents. But for me, Paradigm/Anthem after sale services are A1, and that since 9 years!

[Brianphoto]

Levesque, I agree with you regarding Paradigm which is why I am so confused over their response to my situation. They do make quality gear and the I am very happy with the set up I have.

The longer threads go the more they get diluted and more of the post is lost so I will repost with in more detail.

In October 2003 I purchased a brand new reference system from my local dealer including a new Servo 15 v1. Two months later, in December, the sub developed an internal rattle which could not be repaired by my dealer so it was sent to Paradigm which they replaced with a brand new Servo 15v1. I noticed defects in the cabinet, under the grill a couple of weeks later. It was now a few days before Christmas and I did not want to deal with it during Christmas so my dealer wan not informed right away about it. I wanted to wait until Christmas was over. Unfortunately immediately after Christmas I was faced with a personal crisis, which I will not elaborate on here in this forum. It has been a year since I was physically able to have the subject of the sub seen to but the sub has not been used for a year. I have moved provinces since then and brought the sub to a local dealer here, not the original place of purchase. They sent the sub away for me over 2 months ago and never got any satisfaction from Paradigm so they basically told me I should deal with Paradigm myself. Since they never sold the sub to me originally they were not very helpful. 3 weeks ago Paradigm told me that the v1 was not made anymore and there was nothing they could do for me, only repair the damaged wood. I was not happy with the results and told them I would pay the difference for a newer v3. They would not do that and just sent the sub back to me in it's present state. Hope this clarifies things more.

Another poster made a good point that companies are required to have replacement parts available for 5 years after the product has been discontinued. If that is the case and if the cabinet is considered a part,it may be another angle. Anyone know anything about this law?

[Shinerman]

Brian, this is my response from another unamed forum you are also posting on. I thought I would post it hear as well. I go by JSE on the other forum,

********

I gotta say I agree with Paradigm on this one. I'm not impressed with how they handled it but the end result is just.

You waited over a year to bring the "blemish" to their attention and now you want them to warranty it? Personal physical issues aside, it seems they have gone above and beyond to help a customer out. You gave them a damaged sub. You can't prove they damaged it and you can't prove you did not. If I was Paradigm, I would be thinking.....

" Hmm, our customer took delivery of this replacement sub over a year ago and never brought any problems to our attention upon receipt. The customer now, over a year later, says it was delivered to him with blemishes and water damage. The sub has been sitting in his house for over a year. There are a million gazzilion ways the damage could have occurred in this time. We sent a good sub to the customer, now over a year later he has a problem with it? Well, let's offer to repair the blemish for free as a "good will gesture". "

Seems pretty reasonable. They replace your v2 sub with a v2 sub and now over a year later you have a problem with something that should have been obvious from day one and delt with from day one. Hard fact? You can't prove they sent you a damaged sub and waiting over a year does not help your case. Count yourself lucky and move on. Your not going to win this one.

******

Shinerman

[Brianphoto]

Shinerman, this is also the same response I made to your post in the other forum.

JSE, Regarless of the time frame involved, and my inability to respond to this sooner I feel I have evidence that the sub had manufacturer defects. First of all I saw it after a couple of weeks. It is under the grill so it was not noticed right away. Secondly the wood that was chipped and splintered has rosewood stain underneath the actual raised wood so that tells me that the cabinet was sprayed in the factory with these defects visable. If the damage happened after, the wood underneath would be natural colour with no stain visible. For example, If you take a piece of stained wood with no blemishes in it and remove a splinter from it, the wood under the splinter would be clear right? If the splinter was there before the spray finish was applied there would be stain all over the splinter and below correct? It is easy to tell this defect was just sprayed over in the factory.

[Brianphoto]

Yeah you may be right. Will have to chalk it up as a learning experience. Hope others have learned somethig as well.

[ducker]

re: "the stain"
if it is over the whole face, including where the chip is, yes it sounds as if it was there all along. Then again, I believe rosewoods coloring is uniform pretty much throughout the wood.

2 weeks, to even maybe a month or two max I can see returning something. But that length of time just seems way too long.

I would be that aggravated except for the fact you paid a premium amount of money for your speakers.

the Athena AS-F2 speakers I bought at BB a few months ago had some damage on the corners. One was an open box, so I knew, the other was a closed box, which I opened and inspected. It too was lightly damamged. If I was buying these at the MSRP, or higher, I might of complained - but the damamge doesn't effect the sound or the look of the speakers that much.

I bet they didn't expect the customer to notice/care about that blemish. If it was $150, I'd agree with them. For $1500+? or whatever you paid... I'd be absolutely ticked.... and wouldn't of waited.

Given your situation, the length of time, and the fact that you moved, I think your SOL. Even going back to the original shop that sold you the sub would be difficult... Because they too would be like.. um, didn't you get this like a year ago?!?

[Takeereasy]

I've gotta say I agree with Shinerman and Ducker. There must be some kind of limitation on manufacturer liability, otherwise things would be insane. The fact that they attempted to affect cosmetic changes free of charge a year after original sale in the first place speaks volumes about their customer service IMO. I'd love to have a company that gullable, err...., I mean "customer friendly" as my manufacturer. You bought Paradigm Speakers from a respectable shop, not KOSS from Wallmart so you should expect a less liberal exchange policy.

You did pay a premium for those speakers, and to me at least, it seems Paradigm went out of their way to show the respect they had for you as a customer, or to be more accurate your pocket book. They seem to have gone above and beyond what I'd expect in any case. Now if only they'd submit some products for review on this site I'd be much happier with them.

If anyone your dealer should have let you trade in the sub and pay the difference in an upgrade like someone else suggested. Lord knows if I went in to my Paradigm dealer and they had that sub sitting there 50% off due to a cosmetic only issue I'd be reaching for my wallet before my brain could fire up to stop me. Of course I still couldn't afford that sub even 50% off, but you get the idea. My advice would be to slap the grill on and forget about it. You have a system most of us can only dream about you lucky devil.

[TjMV3]

Doesn't matter. The Sub is still under warranty.

They should do what they have to, to make this right.

When I look at pictures Brian posted (look closely), it seems clear to me that there is an issue with shoddy workmanship on that particular sub.

Which is surprising to me. Despite my experiences, the Paradigm and Anthem gear I had and have ever seen has always been of quality workmanship, aesthetically speaking.

I now understand why this dealer wouldn't do much more for you. That makes sense. I retract my earlier comment about that particular dealer.

Still, in my opinion, Paradigm is not doing the right thing here. It seems to me like they sent Brian a refurbished sub, as an exchange for the one he and that was defective. Speculation on my part.

At the very least they can work with him and exchange the sub for a current sub, and let Brian pay the difference in cost. Their reluctance to do so does not bode well with me.

[ducker]

Doesn't matter. The Sub is still under warranty.
...

Still, in my opinion, Paradigm is not doing the right thing here. It seems to me like they sent Brian a refurbished sub, as an exchange for the one he and that was defective. Speculation on my part.

At the very least they can work with him and exchange the sub for a current sub, and let Brian pay the difference in cost. Their reluctance to do so does not bose well with me.

The damamge is cosmetic. I doubt many warranty's will cover cosmetic issues.

I would agree with your speculation on the refurb. But since he waited so long there really isn't much that can be done.

The SVS PB10-ISD I bought with my new system had a slightly different color grill then my other grills. Quite a bit different. (pictures posted somewhere on the forum still I beieve) I contacted them ASAP and they replaced it with a different grill. I was quite ticked off... Around 1/3rd of my HT budget went in to the sub... and it looked horrible. Would I expect them to do this 1+ year after the purchase of the Sub?? I don't know.. I doubt it. Who knows where you had the sub, the Sun might of bleached out the coloring of the grill...

So what I'm saying, if something isn't up to par with your expecations, you need to say something. waiting, 9 times out of 10, will not end in a positive outcome.

Sorry :(

[Brianphoto]

TjMV3, your comments are right on the money with me. I think the sub was a refurb and was passed on to me as a replacement for the faulty one. And yes after reading many of the posts here I can understand Paradigm's position, not that I feel it is right. I still think my offer to give them more of my money to get a replacement was a fair deal.

Ducker, I understand your comments on time delay but like I have said, it was impossible for me to act on this any sooner. There is also a 5 year waranty on the cabinet if I am not mistaken.

[Shadow_Ferret]

...
You waited over a year to bring the "blemish" to their attention and now you want them to warranty it? .Guess I'm lost as to the time frame. I thought a rattle within 1 month caused the unit to be returned and that the replacement unit was received WITH the cabinet damage.

Where does the "over a year" come in?

[Takeereasy]

Wasn't brought up on this site but another one apparantly. Ask Shinerman. Apparantly he got the rattle and sent the sub in for repairs, got a new sub replacement that had the flaw and waited around a year to report it.

As for the sub being under warranty it is not a no fault warranty so there is no 100% for sure promise to service. Is your logic I spent more money so I deserve to get service other customers won't? I feel Paradigm has a right to be suspicious of this claim. That doesn't mean that they are correct, only justified in refusing replacement in this instance. To a manufacturer it could simply sound like buyers remorse and a desire to upgrade.

If you guys expect your equipments manufacturer to replace what looks like watersatined epuipment a year after you receive it and claim that you "Just can't live with it anymore but it's been there all along honest", then you might be dissapointed. This is not a slam against you Brianphoto but the last time I checked you can buy furniture touch up pens to match rosewood and that could explain why the damage area looks painted after damage. Also they probably put about 5 or so coats of stain on that speaker, more than enough to let it soak in to the depth where minor nicks would still be showing the same colour. Lord knows I am lazy enough to be in the same boat you are in. But seriously, when did you take the grill off? Was it ever aside from taking photos to post?

I'm not doubting your claim Brianphoto, just stating why I don't feel this is the manufacturer's responsibility. I agree your dealer should have done more for you. Even if he didn't believe you, you had shown him that you were willing to spend large amounts of money to be happy with your purchase. I would want you and all of your friends as customers, the easy way to do this is to accomodate you. He should have worked extra hard to please you, instead I wonder how happy you are with his service and will he get your business again?

[Shinerman]

Guess I'm lost as to the time frame. I thought a rattle within 1 month caused the unit to be returned and that the replacement unit was received WITH the cabinet damage.

Where does the "over a year" come in?


Check our Brian's response in post #31 in this thread. He has the same thread over at AR.com.

Like I said before, the waiting one year is the killer here. The sub has also now been repaired.

Brian, read the warranty again. I am guessing somewhere it says that a repair is valid instead of sub replacement. To be honest, and you may have a completely different perspective and rationale and pride and this is in no way intended as a insult of slam but, I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. The repair is not pefect but it's also not bad at all. You see it because you know it's there, I doubt anyone else would ever notice it unless you kneeled down and showed it to them. Bottom line, the sub is performing as it should. Put the grill on, which should be done regardless, and forget about it.

Even in type we can see that vein in the side of your neck poking out. It's not worth it. :p

Shinerman

[Brianphoto]

Ok gentlemen (not sure if there were any lady posters) I think we got about as much milage out of this thread as possible. There were a lot of varying opinions here and be sure that I have read them all and really appreciate the input that everybody had here. As a new HT person I look forward to learning from all of the forums here and hopefully have something pertinent to contribute. I have already started another thread under projectors so check it out and let me know if you have any info to offer. Thanks again............