Speaker Specs? - Help!

[DSLO]

Hi. What is the best way to tell a good speaker in terms of reading the specs. I realize that listening to speakers in the store is the best barometer, and taste varies between the user, etc. What can you do when choosing between different speakers that all seem pretty good. Is frequency response a good spec to check? If so, can you explain how the ranges are understood (i.e. is 40Hz - 27KHz better than 69Hz - 18KHz)? I'm looking for some decent quality (but inexpensive) bookshelf speakers (Polk, JBL, Yamaha) to add to my current system. Nothing crazy. Thanks for the help. Be nice, I'm not a genius when it comes to this stuff.

[Leprkon]

Hi. If so, can you explain how the ranges are understood (i.e. is 40Hz - 27KHz better than 69Hz - 18KHz)?
Be nice, I'm not a genius when it comes to this stuff.
the number to look for is on the low end. you really want your mains to reach down to about 50 Hz, even though you will probably set your crossover a littl ehigher than that.

You want to make sure there is an overlap between your sub and your mains, and 50 usually assures this.

the high end number might impress people to read it, but the sad truth is human hearing basically ends at 18 KHz, and for most people over the age of nine, it stops at 13 KHz.

another measure of quality is the sensitivity. you would like to see a minimum number of 89 dB, otherwise your receiver will be working very hard to pump out the volume you want.

the lower end of the bookshelf speaker market is probably the most hotly contested area in electronics right now. :) You can actually get some really great deals in this arena from better names.

this one is particular will be hard to beat:

http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=1.1

here's another set for under a hundred:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=5335693&type=product&id=1051806301325

you can also get some really great deals on the bic america speakers

http://www.thetwistergroup.com/product/DV-62SIB%20D00804.html

the old standby's like Infinity and Polk Audio can be good finds if you take the time to look for good prices.

[Buckeyefan 1]

Lep is right, but I would even suggest looking for spl's in the low to mid 90's if possible. Polks are rated at 89 to 90 and require big power to drive them. Not good if you have a sub $700 receiver. You won't hear what the Polks can reproduce with a lack of power. You'll rarely ever see speakers rated below 20,000Hz, but you will see a lot of variation from 20Hz to 100Hz. Those numbers only mean something if they are rated at +/-3dB. A manufacturer that claims a speaker is rated from 30-20,000Hz and doesn't differentiate the dB level isn't telling you the 30Hz figure may not be attainable until the speakers are driven to their limits and possibly distorting the higher frequencies. The +/-3dB figure allows for all drivers to reproduce these frequencies at a similar level. Keep in mind that a horn tweeter will sound totally different than a ribbon tweeter or soft dome tweeter, even though they may have similar specs. Two 5.25" mids will sound different than 1 6.5" midbass driver. The midrange is totally lost in the frequency response specs, but it's probably the most important aspect of sound reproduction. Finally, don't let specs fool you. There are the "white van" style speakers out there on ebay with impressive specs. What they don't have are the all important high end crossovers which keep your tweeter from reproducing mid bass and your woofer reproducing a female's voice. They also don't have the build quality or driver quality of the better known brands. The best bet is to demo as many as you can. You'll start to see a pattern of brands you like and ones you hate.

[shokhead]

I think the spl is pretty important when looking for speakers.

[shokhead]

the number to look for is on the low end. you really want your mains to reach down to about 50 Hz, even though you will probably set your crossover a littl ehigher than that.

You want to make sure there is an overlap between your sub and your mains, and 50 usually assures this.

the high end number might impress people to read it, but the sad truth is human hearing basically ends at 18 KHz, and for most people over the age of nine, it stops at 13 KHz.

another measure of quality is the sensitivity. you would like to see a minimum number of 89 dB, otherwise your receiver will be working very hard to pump out the volume you want.

the lower end of the bookshelf speaker market is probably the most hotly contested area in electronics right now. :) You can actually get some really great deals in this arena from better names.

this one is particular will be hard to beat:

http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=1.1

here's another set for under a hundred:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=5335693&type=product&id=1051806301325

you can also get some really great deals on the bic america speakers

http://www.thetwistergroup.com/product/DV-62SIB%20D00804.html

the old standby's like Infinity and Polk Audio can be good finds if you take the time to look for good prices.

Not sur where those numbers are from but i've always read hearing is 20Hz to 20Khz and as you get old,its less.

[Leprkon]

Not sur where those numbers are from but i've always read hearing is 20Hz to 20Khz and as you get old,its less.
this is true, but while getting 20 Hz from a bookshelf is possible, the midrange would really suffer. :( it's better, to me at least, to count on a sub for the 20 to 80-ish range and use the mains from 50-ish on up. :)

[Buckeyefan 1]

Here's some more info on frequency response.

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/131062.html

I'm trying to find a site that shows average response of different instruments as well as male and female voices. I think that would answer a lot of questions.

[3db]

the high end number might impress people to read it, but the sad truth is human hearing basically ends at 18 KHz, and for most people over the age of nine, it stops at 13 KHz.


another measure of quality is the sensitivity. you would like to see a minimum number of 89 dB, otherwise your receiver will be working very hard to pump out the volume you want.

the lower end of the bookshelf speaker market is probably the most hotly contested area in electronics right now. :) You can actually get some really great deals in this arena from better names.

this one is particular will be hard to beat:

http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=1.1

here's another set for under a hundred:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=5335693&type=product&id=1051806301325

you can also get some really great deals on the bic america speakers

http://www.thetwistergroup.com/product/DV-62SIB%20D00804.html

the old standby's like Infinity and Polk Audio can be good finds if you take the time to look for good prices.

At the ripe old age of 18 and 19, I was walking away with headaches out the electronics labs because I could here the 18KHz wine of the old oscilloscopes. I think most nine year olds can still hear close to 20KHz. I tested my daughters hearing 13, and 11, and they both rolled off at 19KHz. I on the other hand could barely hear 13KHz. I hope I don't loose much more.

Sensitivity has no bearing what so ever on quality. PSB's stratus Mini's are inefficient with senstivities around the 87db mark. Pitting them against the highly sensitive Axioms and athenas is a non contest. But I do agree with you that its important to get a fairly senstive speaker when mating them to lower power receivers or to receivers driving speakers in a large room

[shokhead]

this is true, but while getting 20 Hz from a bookshelf is possible, the midrange would really suffer. :( it's better, to me at least, to count on a sub for the 20 to 80-ish range and use the mains from 50-ish on up. :)

So a good set of boolshelfs would have a range of what, 50Hz-60Hz?
Name a couple that you think would fall in here. I'm starting to think upgrade next year and would like 4 bookshelfs alike for mains and surrounds.

[3db]

So a good set of boolshelfs would have a range of what, 50Hz-60Hz?
Name a couple that you think would fall in here. I'm starting to think upgrade next year and would like 4 bookshelfs alike for mains and surrounds.

as well as PSB"s Platinum's M2.

Paradisgm's S2 ..


there are others

[silversurfer]

as well as PSB"s Platinum's M2.

The Platinum M2's are VERY nice. Not inexpensive either, but oh so sweet.

another measure of quality is the sensitivity. you would like to see a minimum number of 89 dB, otherwise your receiver will be working very hard to pump out the volume you want.
I disagree. There are a number of high quality speakers that are less efficient. With such speakers, you need more clean power to drive them. Speakers designed with higher efficiency, can be driven nicely with lower power amps, relatively speaking. Tradeoffs are usually apparent in the bass area if all things are equal.

[Shadow_Ferret]

I tend to disagree on the SPL number, too. I've heard NHTs and they sound so sweet, but are rated only at 86 spl.

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

heres a question:

I can burn a 20KHz sine wave tone onto a CD-R, and hear it on my system. Does this mean I can hear 20KHz, or is my actually hearing lower than 20K, but I can't tell it apart from, say 16KHz?

[3db]

heres a question:

I can burn a 20KHz sine wave tone onto a CD-R, and hear it on my system. Does this mean I can hear 20KHz, or is my actually hearing lower than 20K, but I can't tell it apart from, say 16KHz?


If the software that is generating the 20KHz wave that you burn on to your CDR is fairly accurate, I would say that you are hearing 20KHz.. But careful with the volume levels so that you don't damage your hearing.

[DSLO]

Ok. Thanks for all the feedback. Most of it's over my head, but I'm not really that lost :rolleyes:

Here's the list of speakers I'm looking at. Any additional feedback is appreciated.

Polk Speakers
Bookshelf * 2-Way/6.5" Woofer * 125 Watts per Channel * 1 Low Frequency Driver - Model RTI6B - $380 pair

Polk Speakers
Bookshelf * 2-Way/5.25" Woofer * 125 Watts per Channel * 1 Low Frequency Driver - Model RTI4B - $260 pair

Polk Speakers
Bookshelf * 2-Way/5.25" Woofer * 125 Watts per Channel * 2 Low Frequency Drivers - Model MONITOR40B - $250 pair

Polk Speakers
Bookshelf * 2-Way/5.25" Woofer * 100 Watts per Channel * 1 Low Frequency Driver - Model ATRIUM45W - $200 pair

JBL Speakers
Bookshelf * 2-Way/5" Woofer * 100 Watts per Channel * 1 Low Frequency Driver - Model NRE20 - $200 pair

Yamaha Speakers
Bookshelf * 2-Way/5" Woofer * 150 Watts per Channel * 1 Low Frequency Driver - Model NS333 - $200 pair

Polk Speakers
Bookshelf * 2-Way/5.25" Woofer * 100 Watts per Channel * 1 Low Frequency Driver - Model ATRIUM45B - $200 pair

JBL Speakers
Bookshelf * 2-Way/4" Woofer * 100 Watts per Channel * 1 Low Frequency Driver - Model NRE10CH - $180 pair

:confused:

[Buckeyefan 1]

You really can't go wrong with Polk. The RTi series use better drivers than the Monitor series. I took apart my RTi4's this past weekend, and the 5.25" woofer's magnet is as large as the woofer itself. The crossover is huge. I was very impressed by the build quality. Most small bookshelves with 5.25" woofers don't have dual 5 way binding posts. These do. I liked the RTi4's mid bass better than the RTi6's, but I use them for surround. If you are using them for fronts, you may prefer the larger RTi6. Now I haven't compared the Monitor 40 to the RTi's side by side. That may be a good comparison since the Monitor has dual woofers for a lower price. You just may not get the higher build quality or drivers. Specs are very close. I would say the Yamaha and JBL are a distant second to either Polks IMO. Don't forget, there are other options our there for less money. You may still be able to get your hands on some Athena AS-B2's from Best Buy or BIC DV62's at yahoo shopping. Both IMO sound as good as my RTi bookshelves and are much more affordable (not paying for the Polk name).

[DSLO]

Thanks for the advice Buckeyefan. I was just doing some research on the Polk website (and others). The reason why I listed the speakers above is because I know someone that can get me a deal here in NY at a reputable electronics retailer. I always buy my stuff there. They basically carry the bookshelf speakers listed. I know Polk is good quality. I can probably get the speakers at about $75-$100 less than list price. It's funny that you just got back on the recommendation because the next question was going to be between the RTI's and Monitor series. PS - The speakers will be used for surround. The Monitor series looks nice, specs are similar, but the RTI's seem like better quality. Thanks again for the help.

[shokhead]

You really can't go wrong with Polk. The RTi series use better drivers than the Monitor series. I took apart my RTi4's this past weekend, and the 5.25" woofer's magnet is as large as the woofer itself. The crossover is huge. I was very impressed by the build quality. Most small bookshelves with 5.25" woofers don't have dual 5 way binding posts. These do. I liked the RTi4's mid bass better than the RTi6's, but I use them for surround. If you are using them for fronts, you may prefer the larger RTi6. Now I haven't compared the Monitor 40 to the RTi's side by side. That may be a good comparison since the Monitor has dual woofers for a lower price. You just may not get the higher build quality or drivers. Specs are very close. I would say the Yamaha and JBL are a distant second to either Polks IMO. Don't forget, there are other options our there for less money. You may still be able to get your hands on some Athena AS-B2's from Best Buy or BIC DV62's at yahoo shopping. Both IMO sound as good as my RTi bookshelves and are much more affordable (not paying for the Polk name).

I wonder how the Axiom M22ti's stack up to those?

[silversurfer]

I wonder how the Axiom M22ti's stack up to those?

The M22 stacks up very well. Nice and balanced, maybe a bit forward for some, but when the volume gets loud, the metal tweeter loses its composure. Good mids, no boxiness.

[Tom Andry]

but when the volume gets loud, the metal tweeter loses its composure

How loud? I've had mine as loud as I think most are likely to and didn't experience any "loss of composure"? The Audioholics review (http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/loudspeakers/faceoff3_g.php) didn't indicate anything like what you are describing.

[shokhead]

The M22 stacks up very well. Nice and balanced, maybe a bit forward for some, but when the volume gets loud, the metal tweeter loses its composure. Good mids, no boxiness.

Whats the difference between the different material used for tweeters and is one better then another?

[Buckeyefan 1]

Whats the difference between the different material used for tweeters and is one better then another?

Good question. There are several different types.

Cone tweeters are efficient and the most economical. They have a limited dispersion pattern. They are used in the most basic systems. ie KLH.

Dome tweeters - the type found in most home speakers - have a more linear response and are more accurate. They also have a much wider dispersion pattern than any other type. Some domes are made of metals like neodymium or titanium that yield extended high frequency response. Others are made of Mylar, or a fine cloth like silk for a less extended but somewhat more linear, smoother sound. Some are made from a combination of materials. The dome can be made from virtually any material. Cloth, silk, boron, titanium, paper, Kevlar, and flat aluminium honeycomb.

Horn Tweeters are powered either by a dynamic (magnet & coil) diaphragm, or by a Piezo driver. They are the most powerful high frequency emitter but more directional, and may lack the extended range of the domes. Horns are basically domes or cones that have been loaded with a better control of the air via the horn structure aligned before them. They produce higher efficiencies but at the price of colorations as the higher frequencies echo down the throat of the horn. ie Klipsch.

Panel or film drivers (ribbons and electrostatics) are a high end style tweeter, and are usually sought after by the most demanding listeners. These drivers consist of very thin films (between 1/3 and 1 one thousandth of an inch thick) suspended in either a magnetic field (ribbon) or an electrostatic field (electrostatic). An audio signal is applied to the film and the entire film surface moves which pushes the air. This is very different from the dome which is driven only at the perimeter.

[jaxvon]

You mustn't forget about the new B&W diamond tweeter Buckeye! That thing is ultra-linear and rigid. It doesn't break up until it nears 100kHz. Quite amazing if you ask me.

[WmAx]

Dome tweeters They also have a much wider dispersion pattern than any other type.

The widest dispersion front-only radiating tweeters are ribbon tweeters such as the Raven drivers. This is due to the tiny horiztonal surface area, which permits a point source behaviour over most of the operational bandwidth. However, due to the longer than usual vertical surface area, the vertical disperion is more limited. Most dome tweeters start to demonstrate directional behaviour before 10kHz at vertical and horiztonal planes. Directionality is related to the width of the radiating area in a given plane vs. frequency wavelength.

-Chris

[WmAx]

You mustn't forget about the new B&W diamond tweeter Buckeye! That thing is ultra-linear and rigid. It doesn't break up until it nears 100kHz. Quite amazing if you ask me.

Amazing, technically, perhaps. But, it's still 99% hype. :)

-Chris

[silversurfer]

Great stuff WmAx.....

Which all goes to say, no matter how good the parts of a speaker are, the art of making them all work well together is at least or more important.

[JoeE SP9]

Hi. What is the best way to tell a good speaker in terms of reading the specs. I realize that listening to speakers in the store is the best barometer, and taste varies between the user, etc. What can you do when choosing between different speakers that all seem pretty good. Is frequency response a good spec to check? If so, can you explain how the ranges are understood (i.e. is 40Hz - 27KHz better than 69Hz - 18KHz)? I'm looking for some decent quality (but inexpensive) bookshelf speakers (Polk, JBL, Yamaha) to add to my current system. Nothing crazy. Thanks for the help. Be nice, I'm not a genius when it comes to this stuff.
The only way to buy speakers is to listen to them first. Nothing else matters.:cool:

[shokhead]

I didnt listen to my sub before i got it and do you think the speakers are going to sound the same at Good Guys as your living room?

[silversurfer]

I didnt listen to my sub before i got it and do you think the speakers are going to sound the same at Good Guys as your living room?
Nope. But if you understand the differences in your room and gear compared to what is used at Good Guys, it will at least give you an idea.

I have heard some outstanding speakers in my own setup and at a friend's house....and in the two different places, they sounded extremely different. He has higher end electronics than I do, but the room had much more hard reflective surfaces.

[shokhead]

Nope. But if you understand the differences in your room and gear compared to what is used at Good Guys, it will at least give you an idea.

I have heard some outstanding speakers in my own setup and at a friend's house....and in the two different places, they sounded extremely different. He has higher end electronics than I do, but the room had much more hard reflective surfaces.

I can get the same idea at Axiom by looking at the spec's and reading reviews. Dont you think?

[silversurfer]

I can get the same idea at Axiom by looking at the spec's and reading reviews. Dont you think?
From reviews, you can get an idea, but nothing replaces actually listening to the speakers.

From specs, no, I think you actually need to see a set of measurements.

[Tex-amp]

Specs don't tell you how a speaker is voiced only how much variation from a flat response they have, power consumption, and the range they can reproduce. But not how they sound!

[DSLO]

Well, I ended up with the Polk Monitor 40 speakers. I haven't really used them much since yesterday, but the sound seems to be very sharp. On a side note, while I get deep discounts on other audio/video equipment I've purchased lately, for some reason Polk doesn not leave much room ($) for the retailer. I heard Bose, and some other manufacturers do the same. So, I ended up paying about $250 for the pair. Good or bad? I have the Yamaha RX-V1500 receiver that I got a few weeks ago, old Yamaha tower speakers and sub, and some old Advent speakers. It's a makeshift home theater (but I'm trying). Don't know if it's me or what, but while listening to dvd's the volume has to be in the -40 range (dialogue still sort of low). Is this normal? I expected the audio to be cranking , but maybe not. Also, I noticed if the night audio is set to cinema (on the receiver), the dialogue is somewhat better. Should I keep this on? Thanks for everyone's input. It's been helpful.

[WmAx]

From specs, no, I think you actually need to see a set of measurements.

Right. The published specifications and the very limited measurements that are provided by manufacturers are nearly useless. Sufficient measurements will strongly coorelate with how a speaker will sound and react in an environment, but this is alot (!) of data to digest, and most people would not be able to interpret the data even if it was published.

-Chris