Older 5.1 Receiver as Amp

[pcsolutionz]

Hello guys (and Gals). I recently started thinking of upgrading my system and while looking around for ideas came across the option of adding an external amp to my existing Yamaha RX-V765 receiver. Not only would I like more power but my receiver is limited to a single crossover setting for all speakers. Really wish I'd known more before buying the AVR. I now would have purchased a unit with Audyssey and individual crossover capabilities. But I'm stuck with it now or lose out on a good chunk of cash upgrading. Not rich like some, LOL. While it would be nice to purchase an XPA-3 for my Fronts and Center, right now funds are tight. I have an older JVC RX-668V collecting dust in my room. Actually, I forgot I had it until an article out there gave me the idea of using it as a standalone amp in line with my Yamaha RX-V765. The Yamaha has pre-outs, the JVC does not. I have been trying to get it to work right with no luck. I'm not quite sure if it is possible or not. I have managed to get it to power my fronts and center by running out of the Yamaha pre-outs for Front L,R and Center into the DVD RCA inputs on the JVC. The sound comes out very muffled and almost as if they were a surround speaker. I have toyed around with all the settings I could find on the JVC with no luck. At one point I think I had it connected to CD on the JVC and got normal stereo sound through the Fronts. The sound was very clean and full but could not get the center to have sound. I know I am doing something wrong but have no idea what to do. I'm thinking that because the JVC is a 5.1 receiver and not just stereo, it can not be done or I have to disable something for it to act as an amp only. I'll list my gear below and provide links to the two AVR's. Any ideas that could get this working correctly would truly help me until I am able to learn a little more and purchase the proper upgrade for my existing components. Thanks in advance for all support on this matter and I hope that I have been somewhat clear.

Components

Yamaha RX-V765

JVC RX668V Manual

Klipsch WF-34
Klipsch WC-24
Klipsch Synergy Sub 12
Klipsch Quintet 5.0 Surrounds


If there is any more info needed, please let me know how I could help. I truly appreciate any time and all replies. Bobby C. (incloud design).

[fuzz092888]

First of all don't use an old AVR for power. There are no real benefits and I'm not sure why you think you need more power in the first place. You have Klipsch speakers, which have pretty darn good efficiency. I could run the numbers for you if you really want, but for now I'll just say you're not going to be pushing more than 20ish watts to get them to referenceish levels from about 9 feet away.

You mentioned being unhappy with the single crossover setting, but adding an external amp won't fix this. If that bothers you, then you have to upgrade.

Right now you have speakers that can easily be driven with an AVR, more power really shouldn't be an issue unless these speakers are in a huge room. Better room correction would definitely help, but that would go along with upgrading the AVR as well.

You could always tweak the level adjustments for different speakers if you want it louder as well.

[pcsolutionz]

Thanks for the reply. Well, that takes the fun out of it. I'm probably trying to justify my reasoning in an upgrade. Lol. It all comes down to it seems as though having a crossover of 80 or 60hz makes me lose detail in sound. Setting my crossover to 120 gives pretty good detail but boomy bass. I think maybe my real problem is my sub. It is almost annoying to hear explosions. When the LFE kicks in, it is obvious that the sound is coming from the sub. It kills me that I just bought everything new less than a year ago and now that I've Learned a little I made some poor choices. I'd really appreciate some advice on my best upgrade path with my mentioned components. I'm going to lose out somewhere regardless. Just would like to make sure I don't waste more money. I think I'd like to move up to separates. Thanks in advance for your help.

[fuzz092888]

Well your sub is definitely the weak link in your system. I'd upgrade that before the AVR. The sub you have now isn't great and you said it yourself, can sound boomy if you set the crossover around 60-80 Hz. Now, not all of this could be the subwoofers fault, it could be your room too. If you didn't do a proper bass crawl and just plopped in a place that looked good you could be running into some serious room~sub interaction that is causing everything to sound even worse.

My suggestion would be to do a bass crawl first, get the sub optimally placed. If you're still unhappy, come back and maybe do a search and see if there is a good subwoofer in your budget. Once you've replaced the sub with one you can be happy with (if you need it) then in a couple years replace the AVR. I really think replacing the sub would benefit you more than replacing the AVR, but either ways it's going to cost more money, so try the bass crawl first. If you're still unhappy come back and we'll help you spend more money

[ahblaza]

Well your sub is definitely the weak link in your system. I'd upgrade that before the AVR. The sub you have now isn't great and you said it yourself, can sound boomy if you set the crossover around 60-80 Hz. Now, not all of this could be the subwoofers fault, it could be your room too. If you didn't do a proper bass crawl and just plopped in a place that looked good you could be running into some serious room~sub interaction that is causing everything to sound even worse.

My suggestion would be to do a bass crawl first, get the sub optimally placed. If you're still unhappy, come back and maybe do a search and see if there is a good subwoofer in your budget. Once you've replaced the sub with one you can be happy with (if you need it) then in a couple years replace the AVR. I really think replacing the sub would benefit you more than replacing the AVR, but either ways it's going to cost more money, so try the bass crawl first. If you're still unhappy come back and we'll help you spend more money

Fuzz, I think the OP said his sub sounds boomy with Xover set at 120Hz and the speakers sound is more detailed at the 120Hz setting, but at 60-80z the speakers are veiled, maybe the sub can't handle the higher frequencies?

[pcsolutionz]

Thanks for the replies guys. I currently have the Yamaha running from pre outs for Front left and right along with center out. Then running into the JVC DVD Multi Front (Left,Right) and Center. Then out the corresponding speaker jacks of the JVC. I can barely get any sound as though it is on the wrong setting. If I turn the volume of the JVC above 60db it shuts off and says overload. If I keep the volume down and turn up the Yamaha, the Yamaha shuts down. I'm worried I'm going to break something. It seems the way I have it should, in theory, work fine. Can a 5.1 receiver be used as an amp only? It would be great to be able to get this to work until I can afford the proper external amp. The JVC is just collecting dust. It is all set up now and I would love some solid advice on my setup before I dismantle it. Surely, I do not want to damage any components by running the system incorrectly.

[fuzz092888]

Fuzz, I think the OP said his sub sounds boomy with Xover set at 120Hz and the speakers sound is more detailed at the 120Hz setting, but at 60-80z the speakers are veiled, maybe the sub can't handle the higher frequencies?

I just had a look at the klipsch wf-34's and it seems the they are down 3db at about 50Hz which is why crossing at 60 could be making them sound veiled. a 60Hz crossover will extend down beyond 60, so you really want to cross them at 80-100 I would guess. In room response will differ so they may be a bit more extension, but I would think right around 80 should be fine (with a good sub).

I'm not entirely sure what the OP means by veiled? Do you mean you aren't getting as much bass as you'd like? I would assume since we've been talking about subs that you don't think the mid and upper ranges sound worse with a lower crossover or do they?

The sub definitely can't handle a crossover of 120 Hz comfortably. It's 3db down at 120 and the crossover would be asking it to play above that.

I forgot to ask, you are using the sub out on your receiver and you have it plugged into the LFE channel on the back of the sub, what do you have the LPF set for after you set the crossover on the receiver?

Thanks for the replies guys. I currently have the Yamaha running from pre outs for Front left and right along with center out. Then running into the JVC DVD Multi Front (Left,Right) and Center. Then out the corresponding speaker jacks of the JVC. I can barely get any sound as though it is on the wrong setting. If I turn the volume of the JVC above 60db it shuts off and says overload. If I keep the volume down and turn up the Yamaha, the Yamaha shuts down. I'm worried I'm going to break something. It seems the way I have it should, in theory, work fine. Can a 5.1 receiver be used as an amp only? It would be great to be able to get this to work until I can afford the proper external amp. The JVC is just collecting dust. It is all set up now and I would love some solid advice on my setup before I dismantle it. Surely, I do not want to damage any components by running the system incorrectly.

No, stop doing that. As I said before you probably don't even need an external amp at all. You need a better subwoofer and possibly an upgraded receiver, for the second time.

[pcsolutionz]

I am using the sub out 1 of 2 to the LFE on the sub. I have the LPF at max to bypass the subs crossover. I have tried every frequency in a ton of different configurations. Small, Large etc. I am fully aware of the hundreds of controversial threads out there on how all speakers should be set to small. Logically it makes sense. Hate to say, my speakers sound best with no EQ and set to Large. Way fuller, crisper, cleaner sound. The only problem is set to large puts too much on the receiver as the internet will surely explain. Setting Large also causes the sub to produce very little bass. So my logic tells me that removing some of the load off my receiver will enhance its performance for the remaining speakers and processing. Using the JVC for mains as Large and all the rest as small through the Yamaha. Even if I don't need it, can It be done? How? I don't need my PC overclocked to 4.8 GHZ with 24 GB Ram and 4 GTX 560Ti's. I don't need my Smartphone to be rooted, I don't need my HPI Savage to keep up with traffic on the Highway. This, the same as the others are hobbies. I wouldn't be on this site if i could buy something, be happy with it and leave it alone. Don't we like pushing things to the limit? So, can the JVC be used as an amp until my XPA-3 gets here. I will eventually need the power! Thanks again guys!

[fuzz092888]

First of all setting the speakers to large generally means that it bypasses whatever crossover you're setting. So if you set the front three speakers to large you're running them full range with zero crossover. If your surround channels are set to small then they are they only thing delivering a signal to the subwoofer, hence why it sounds weak. (I admit I haven't looked at the manual for the Yammy to know for sure)

Setting the speakers to large won't necessarily put too much strain on the receiver, as the internet also explains. It really depends on how loud you're playing and the efficiency of your speakers. As the internet also explains, since you have efficient speakers (being that they are klipsch) your receiver is more than capable of delivering loud noises to you.

If you are sitting 15 feet away and only using your front towers then you only need 50 wpc to get over 100db, not accounting for room gain either.

with a 15 ft distance and 5 speakers you're at 105 db. These are extremely loud levels and without accounting for room gain.

In other words, if you had just sold the Yamaha, gotten a better receiver with enhanced room correction and a more robust power supply and a better sub, you'd be in much better shape. The money you spent on the XPA-3 is kind of a waste when your subwoofer and receiver could have been improved with more noticeable audio quality improvements.

Of course we all like to get new things and improve our gear, but at your stage in the game and with your equipment, you're improving the wrong part. You improved one of the pieces least likely to improve SQ. A new subwoofer or a better receiver would have been a better buy.

I don't get your logic. There are pieces that have been recommend that would yield immediate sonic improvement and yet you still bought the amp? You won't gain any sonic improvement from the amp, especially because you have speakers that are made to be very sensitive and not need a lot of power. You'll run into thermal compression long before the yamaha runs out of power, and far far far far far before the XPA-3 even breaks a sweat.

If you're dead set on just spending money to spend it, that's ok to each his own, but to use your own example, if you're not going to listen to good sense when you're on here why come on here for help?

Just sayin' Don't misunderstand me, I don't mean to sound like a total a$$ but I'm trying to tell you that adding an external amp shouldn't be the number one thing on your priority list if you want to upgrade something at this point, unless you just want something that's going to sit on a shelf and look cool.

[pcsolutionz]

I understand what your saying and appreciate your help. I'm the one being an a$$. Now that I have the JVC set up i just hoped it would work. I am not looking forward to getting behind the system again. It is really all tucked away and hidden pretty good. My intention is to move to separates and I figured an amp would be a good start. I'm thinking of getting another smaller sub as I have 7.2. Maybe use my Sub 12 for lower bass and a smaller sub for higher bass. This system is soon going to be in my new house with a dedicated theater room.