Power hungry speakers

"Remember that power flows more freely into lower impedences."

I don't follow you on this point.  The lower the impedence of the speakers, the more they will resist the power going to them.  Thus, more strain will be put on the amp to keep up with the resistance the speaker is presenting.  The only way this resistance is overcome is to throw more power at the speaker.  Throwing more power at the speaker is something a properly designed amp should do.  However, as you noted above, most companies either limit or restrict the output instead of increasing or doubling, in order to not damage the unit.  At the ~$1000 price point, I wouldn't expect to see this level of performance.  But at a certain price point one should demand it!

The wattage formulas you presented are a little too simplistic, they would be better suited in calculating the output of a perfectly designed amp in a test environment with all controlled variables.  However, amps, especially those in $1000 units in real world situations do not go by the guidelines you listed.  The "power consumption" on the back does not give one an accurate starting point in the determination of the capabilities of the amp inside.  There are many more factors, capacitance and switching power supplies being some of the major ones.  Most of the amps being discussed here are those in units like the 3803 and 2400.  These types of units are not strict class A/B discrete designs.  Those types of amps usually double as space heaters in the winter time.  Most of the units in the discussion at hand are MOSFETvariants.

best,

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[annunaki]

In response to some of the posts about capacitors and such in the amplifier sections. Most capacitors are designed for  power storage (in the output section), which are released when needed, i.e. dynamic peaks and such. When a receiver is being tested for contiuous output power, there MIGHT be enough power in reserve for a peak increase of around 1db or so. Some amplifiers may be capable of 2db or even 3db dynamic output, however, these statements usually are not accompanied by any sort of time frame measurement. At least in dealing with the capacitors on the output stage of the amplifier.
As far as caps for the power supply are concerned, most are used as filtering capacitors not so much for storage.

"At least in dealing with the capacitors on the output stage of the amplifier.
As far as caps for the power supply are concerned, most are used as filtering capacitors not so much for storage."

True, there usually are a good number of  filter caps in a unit like we are describing, but they pale in comparison to the much larger (higher voltage and capacity) caps on the power output side of the equation.  Generally there are 2 larger caps in the retention and output stage(s).  And, you can not just "turn off" the larger output caps when doing benchmark testing, they are always a factor when testing a receivers capabilities.  Unless you know how to deactivate the output caps???  When these receivers are being tested for their power output with 5 or 6 channels driven (until clipping usually, which I would consider dynamic), the caps are most certainly being put into 5th gear and are being fully exploited!

Are you still asserting that speakers with lower impedence ratings are easier to drive?

Are you saying that in a MOSFET structured amp, the caps are not a factor in power output and dynamic capability?

best,

[annunaki]

Ross, power flows to the path of least resistance. 4 ohms presents less retsriction to the power flow than does 8 ohms. 0 ohms, if there was such a thing, is a short circuit. The lower one goes in impedence the closer you get to short circuit. Why do you think an amplifier would shut down or burn up if you put a 2 ohm speaker on it, when it is not stable to that impedence? We as consumers should demand receivers and amplifiers with competent enough power supplies to drive 4 ohm loads on every channel simultaneously while doubling the power from 8 ohms. A well made amp will double its power with the halving of impedence. 8 ohms to 4 ohms to 2 ohms (100watts>200watts>400watts).

To be honest Ross, if you can show me one of the current receivers out (other than the digital path receivers[full range class D, or a Tri-Path design]), that does not have a Class A/B topology I would be VERY surprised. Sure some may use a PWM (pulse width modulated) power supply but they are still in effect Class A/B topology. How is my formula too simplistic? Sure I generalized the efficency, and left out the draw of the pre amp (very minimal), but in effect it is pretty close.

An amplifier CANNOT produce more power than it uses. The best it could do, would be to output exactly what it draws, giving it 100% efficency which really is not possible as there is always some loss in the devices What you are saying is that an amplifier can produce more power than it draws making its efficency higher than 100%. Granted an amplifier can draw more current from the wall, if you put 4 ohm loads on the channels, but what you are talking about is free power. Basically that the amplifier is making more power out of what is already there.

The most efficent designs currently available would be Full range Class D and the Tri-path design (which fundamentally is full range Class D). Their efficencies usually are around 70%-85%. Meaning minimal losses in heat.

[annunaki]

Guest : "At least in dealing with the capacitors on the output stage of the amplifier. As far as caps for the power supply are concerned, most are used as filtering capacitors not so much for storage." True, there usually are a good number of *filter caps in a unit like we are describing, but they pale in comparison to the much larger (higher voltage and capacity) caps on the power output side of the equation. *Generally there are 2 larger caps in the retention and output stage(s). *And, you can not just "turn off" the larger output caps when doing benchmark testing, they are always a factor when testing a receivers capabilities. *Unless you know how to deactivate the output caps??? *When these receivers are being tested for their power output with 5 or 6 channels driven (until clipping usually, which I would consider dynamic), the caps are most certainly being put into 5th gear and are being fully exploited! Are you still asserting that speakers with lower impedence ratings are easier to drive? Are you saying that in a MOSFET structured amp, the caps are not a factor in power output and dynamic capability? best, I NEVER stated that a 4 ohm load was easier to drive than a higher one on an amplifier. Power flows more easily into a 4 ohm load than an 8 ohm one. NOT a 4 ohm load is easier to drive than an 8 ohm one. Ross, I think you misunderstood what I was saying about impedence. Yes, a lower impedence load is harder for an amplifier to drive, as it requires higher current run through it. As far as the caps go no. I do believe that they are factored into the ouput. At near clipping, like you stated, the caps are usually at about four fifths or so drawn. How can they really benefit any more? At this point the amplifier would be drawing at or near it's wattage consumption from the wall. Any higher and you will either get a lot of clipping and/or the current limiting circuitry kicks in.   Do you Believe the Truth or Seek it. Annunaki Build Thread 1 The Beast, 12W7 Sealed build In-wall Sub Build Pythagoras Sub build Subwoofer Terminology Enclosure Calculator Reply With Quote 03-16-2004, 06:23 PM #116 annunaki Moderator annunaki should be listened to Join Date Dec 2003 Location Wausau, WI Posts 4,214 Thanks Given 1,045 Thanks Received 1,257 Ross, are you insinuating that when a manufacturer rates a receiver at say, 75 watts rms x 6, 20hz-20khz, into 8 ohms, at .1% thd, all channels driven simultaneously, that the amplifier can produce more power without drawing any more current from the wall? In this case or any it is not possible. Why because the caps and power supply are nearly fully taxed before clipping. If we go any higher in wattage output at this point distortion will increase significantly, as will our current draw. If we drop the impedence on our system to say 4 ohms and power output doubles to 150 x 6 we have also now doubled the current draw. Unless of course the efficency of the amplifier could somehow increase, but it can't. As total output power decreases so does our current draw from the wall. Do you Believe the Truth or Seek it. Annunaki Build Thread 1 The Beast, 12W7 Sealed build In-wall Sub Build Pythagoras Sub build Subwoofer Terminology Enclosure Calculator Reply With Quote 03-17-2004, 02:29 AM #117 Guest Reading this tread entirely makes me crave for more. While JDueitt put a strong critique to halt all arms  and nonsense for Zumbo,  Annunaki and all others, he (JDuett) did not succeed. Forum is just like a knowledge data base -- for the ignorant to pickup helpul input from the knowlegables. How accurate the input is up to one's digestion and discretion. I took (others may not)  Annunaki's input of increased signal for HK than Yammy if both has the same watts ratings in surround mode. Almost a week now I bought an Onkyo 701 6.1  100 x 6. From the specs below, can Anunnaki a) Let me know what my true watt rating in surround mode. Ampifier Section: Continuous average power output (FTC) All channels: 100 W per channel min. RMS at 8 ohms, 2 channels driven from 20 hz to 20 khz with no more than .08 % THD. 125 W min. RMS at 6 ohms, 2 channels driven from 1 khz with no more the .1 % THD. Continuous power output (DIN) 130 W at 6 ohms Maximum power output (EIAJ    160 W at 6 ohms Dynamic power output (stereo) 2 x 230 W at 3 ohms                                           2 x 170 W at 4 ohms                                           2 x 115 W at 8 ohms b) Then what HK AVR mode will be =or> to this Onkyo 701 so I could switch. Thanks,   Reply With Quote 03-17-2004, 09:50 AM #118 Guest Annauki, You must remember that with the yamaha's and onkyo's tested in S&V in recent years have most all had their capabilities published in a consistent maner.  Their wattage output was measured in a very respectable manner, and the low specs you stated were taken after the limiting circuitry had already kicked in.  The actual measurements that these units attained were much closer to their actual spec sheets.  Even though they weren't exactly at or above their specs with 5 channels driven, we can't expect that kind of performance on units costing 1k or less.  In 2 channel mode, they routinely did better.  Go back and check out the review of the marantz 7200 if you want to see piss poor performance with high levels of distortion!  You must be up and above a couple thousand ( for a receiver ) before you reach the performance of even cheaper separate amps.   I guess the major point I was trying to get across is that most all amps are doing different things in their operation(s).  I don't think broad generalizations and simplified formulas can be applied to the vast pool of amplifiers we use in our systems.  The published spec sheets from manufacturers are usually the last place I look for solid facts.  They are usually just one-sided, biased marketing tools.   "We as consumers should demand receivers and amplifiers with competent enough power supplies" I wholeheartedly agree, but at a different price bracket than you do.   brochini, My whole point is that none of us here can simply look at the spec sheets the manufacturer of your receiver publishes and accurately formulate its output.  Due to the diversity, proprietary variances, numerous variables, etc., we can not incinuate much about your unit.  However, most of us have been in the hobby for a number of years and can make assumptions or estimates based on prior versions and experiences.   I will tell you that the H/K 7200 is on closeout (authorized sellers) for roughly $700 bucks right now.  AND IT WILL ABSOLUTELY SMOKE THAT ONKYO YOU HAVE!  How much did you spend on that 701? best, Reply With Quote 03-17-2004, 12:08 PM #119 annunaki Moderator annunaki should be listened to Join Date Dec 2003 Location Wausau, WI Posts 4,214 Thanks Given 1,045 Thanks Received 1,257 Guest : Annauki, You must remember that with the yamaha's and onkyo's tested in S&V in recent years have most all had their capabilities published in a consistent maner. *Their wattage output was measured in a very respectable manner, and the low specs you stated were taken after the limiting circuitry had already kicked in. *The actual measurements that these units attained were much closer to their actual spec sheets. *Even though they weren't exactly at or above their specs with 5 channels driven, we can't expect that kind of performance on units costing 1k or less. *In 2 channel mode, they routinely did better. *Go back and check out the review of the marantz 7200 if you want to see piss poor performance with high levels of distortion! *You must be up and above a couple thousand ( for a receiver ) before you reach the performance of even cheaper separate amps. * I guess the major point I was trying to get across is that most all amps are doing different things in their operation(s). *I don't think broad generalizations and simplified formulas can be applied to the vast pool of amplifiers we use in our systems. *The published spec sheets from manufacturers are usually the last place I look for solid facts. *They are usually just one-sided, biased marketing tools. * "We as consumers should demand receivers and amplifiers with competent enough power supplies" I wholeheartedly agree, but at a different price bracket than you do. * brochini, My whole point is that none of us here can simply look at the spec sheets the manufacturer of your receiver publishes and accurately formulate its output. *Due to the diversity, proprietary variances, numerous variables, etc., we can not incinuate much about your unit. *However, most of us have been in the hobby for a number of years and can make assumptions or estimates based on prior versions and experiences. * I will tell you that the H/K 7200 is on closeout (authorized sellers) for roughly $700 bucks right now. *AND IT WILL ABSOLUTELY SMOKE THAT ONKYO YOU HAVE! *How much did you spend on that 701? best, Why then in reviews, is it not stated that the limiting circuitry kicked in, thus lowering the power output. If a receiver's limiting circuitry is kicking in at .1% thd, or even 1% thd it is a pretty poorly made unit in my opinion. What I do not get is how many people defend these so called world class companies that are basically ripping people off because current laws and regulations allow. The current FTC rating on surround receivers is the same for 2 channel stereo units. This is bad. Why? Because the receiver only needs to meet the power spec while driving 2 of the 5-7 channels at a time. SOME receiver manufacturers have realized they can maximize profits because of current rating specifications (regulations). Instead of using a power supply capable of driving all channels to rated power continuously they simply use a smaller one to get 2 channels up to rated power. They still meet the guidelines and they just saved a lot of money. While I do not doubt most receivers performance into two channels, multichannel operation leaves MUCH to be desired on many. Why can't we or shouldn't we expect that kind of performance less than a $1,000. Harman Kardon and NAD seem to have no troubles doing that whatsoever. Are they doing something different than everyone else? You bet, they are giving you the power you expected from the receiver. Exactly what it stated on the box literature, ect. Separate amplifiers are definitley a great alternative, and I do understand that they do outperform their "all in one" counterparts. However, is it so much to ask to get what is expected? Why does everyone think electronics amplifiers, wattage current draw, ect. is so difficult. (I x V)= Wattage, That was tough. (I meaning current in amperes V meaning voltage). The only broad generalization I used was efficency. Current consumtion specifications are much more tightly controlled than wattage. All amplifiers try to do the exact same thing amplifier a lesser signal without adding anything extra. Nearly all receivers are Class A/B (other than the digital path units). If one class A/B amp does something different than another, generally speaking, it is most likely a SMALL efficency difference. An amplifiers output is directly proportional to its current drawn. Show me an amplifier that disobeys this principle and I will buy it, as it just does not happen any other way. I do not trust manufacturer's specs that often either. However, there are certain things they have to be honest with and power consumtion is one of those. The last place you or I may look for specs may be the manufacturer, but many consumers take those specs as truth, unfortunately. That is why manufacturers need to be honest. Cheers! Do you Believe the Truth or Seek it. Annunaki Build Thread 1 The Beast, 12W7 Sealed build In-wall Sub Build Pythagoras Sub build Subwoofer Terminology Enclosure Calculator Reply With Quote 03-17-2004, 12:19 PM #120 Guest "Why then in reviews, is it not stated that the limiting circuitry kicked in, thus lowering the power output." It does actually refer to this in the "LAB NOTES" section at the end of the review.  I have also spoken with yamaha reps, and some of their engineers regarding this matter. I do agree that if not one is a newbie or not privy to all this "truth", that they are getting ripped off. I just don't let it bother me because I know joe-six-pack that picked up a sony unit from Best Buy and is pushing some cerwin vegas will never know the difference.  But yes, we should expect more from the "world rekown" companies we all gab about. best, Reply With Quote Page 12 of 16 First ... 21011121314 ... 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[annunaki]

Ross, are you insinuating that when a manufacturer rates a receiver at say, 75 watts rms x 6, 20hz-20khz, into 8 ohms, at .1% thd, all channels driven simultaneously, that the amplifier can produce more power without drawing any more current from the wall?
In this case or any it is not possible. Why because the caps and power supply are nearly fully taxed before clipping. If we go any higher in wattage output at this point distortion will increase significantly, as will our current draw. If we drop the impedence on our system to say 4 ohms and power output doubles to 150 x 6 we have also now doubled the current draw. Unless of course the efficency of the amplifier could somehow increase, but it can't. As total output power decreases so does our current draw from the wall.

Reading this tread entirely makes me crave for more. While JDueitt put a strong critique to halt all arms  and nonsense for Zumbo,  Annunaki and all others, he (JDuett) did not succeed. Forum is just like a knowledge data base -- for the ignorant to pickup helpul input from the knowlegables. How accurate the input is up to one's digestion and discretion.

I took (others may not)  Annunaki's input of increased signal for HK than Yammy if both has the same watts ratings in surround mode. Almost a week now I bought an Onkyo 701 6.1  100 x 6. From the specs below, can Anunnaki

a) Let me know what my true watt rating in surround mode.
Ampifier Section:
Continuous average power output (FTC)
All channels:
100 W per channel min. RMS at 8 ohms, 2 channels driven from 20 hz to 20 khz with no more than .08 % THD.
125 W min. RMS at 6 ohms, 2 channels driven from 1 khz with no more the .1 % THD.

Continuous power output (DIN) 130 W at 6 ohms
Maximum power output (EIAJ    160 W at 6 ohms
Dynamic power output (stereo) 2 x 230 W at 3 ohms
                                          2 x 170 W at 4 ohms
                                          2 x 115 W at 8 ohms

b) Then what HK AVR mode will be =or> to this Onkyo 701 so I could switch.

Thanks,
 

Annauki,
You must remember that with the yamaha's and onkyo's tested in S&V in recent years have most all had their capabilities published in a consistent maner.  Their wattage output was measured in a very respectable manner, and the low specs you stated were taken after the limiting circuitry had already kicked in.  The actual measurements that these units attained were much closer to their actual spec sheets.  Even though they weren't exactly at or above their specs with 5 channels driven, we can't expect that kind of performance on units costing 1k or less.  In 2 channel mode, they routinely did better.  Go back and check out the review of the marantz 7200 if you want to see piss poor performance with high levels of distortion!  You must be up and above a couple thousand ( for a receiver ) before you reach the performance of even cheaper separate amps.  

I guess the major point I was trying to get across is that most all amps are doing different things in their operation(s).  I don't think broad generalizations and simplified formulas can be applied to the vast pool of amplifiers we use in our systems.  The published spec sheets from manufacturers are usually the last place I look for solid facts.  They are usually just one-sided, biased marketing tools.  

"We as consumers should demand receivers and amplifiers with competent enough power supplies"

I wholeheartedly agree, but at a different price bracket than you do.  

brochini,
My whole point is that none of us here can simply look at the spec sheets the manufacturer of your receiver publishes and accurately formulate its output.  Due to the diversity, proprietary variances, numerous variables, etc., we can not incinuate much about your unit.  However, most of us have been in the hobby for a number of years and can make assumptions or estimates based on prior versions and experiences.  

I will tell you that the H/K 7200 is on closeout (authorized sellers) for roughly $700 bucks right now.  AND IT WILL ABSOLUTELY SMOKE THAT ONKYO YOU HAVE!  How much did you spend on that 701?

best,

[annunaki]

Guest : Annauki, You must remember that with the yamaha's and onkyo's tested in S&V in recent years have most all had their capabilities published in a consistent maner. *Their wattage output was measured in a very respectable manner, and the low specs you stated were taken after the limiting circuitry had already kicked in. *The actual measurements that these units attained were much closer to their actual spec sheets. *Even though they weren't exactly at or above their specs with 5 channels driven, we can't expect that kind of performance on units costing 1k or less. *In 2 channel mode, they routinely did better. *Go back and check out the review of the marantz 7200 if you want to see piss poor performance with high levels of distortion! *You must be up and above a couple thousand ( for a receiver ) before you reach the performance of even cheaper separate amps. * I guess the major point I was trying to get across is that most all amps are doing different things in their operation(s). *I don't think broad generalizations and simplified formulas can be applied to the vast pool of amplifiers we use in our systems. *The published spec sheets from manufacturers are usually the last place I look for solid facts. *They are usually just one-sided, biased marketing tools. * "We as consumers should demand receivers and amplifiers with competent enough power supplies" I wholeheartedly agree, but at a different price bracket than you do. * brochini, My whole point is that none of us here can simply look at the spec sheets the manufacturer of your receiver publishes and accurately formulate its output. *Due to the diversity, proprietary variances, numerous variables, etc., we can not incinuate much about your unit. *However, most of us have been in the hobby for a number of years and can make assumptions or estimates based on prior versions and experiences. * I will tell you that the H/K 7200 is on closeout (authorized sellers) for roughly $700 bucks right now. *AND IT WILL ABSOLUTELY SMOKE THAT ONKYO YOU HAVE! *How much did you spend on that 701? best, Why then in reviews, is it not stated that the limiting circuitry kicked in, thus lowering the power output. If a receiver's limiting circuitry is kicking in at .1% thd, or even 1% thd it is a pretty poorly made unit in my opinion. What I do not get is how many people defend these so called world class companies that are basically ripping people off because current laws and regulations allow. The current FTC rating on surround receivers is the same for 2 channel stereo units. This is bad. Why? Because the receiver only needs to meet the power spec while driving 2 of the 5-7 channels at a time. SOME receiver manufacturers have realized they can maximize profits because of current rating specifications (regulations). Instead of using a power supply capable of driving all channels to rated power continuously they simply use a smaller one to get 2 channels up to rated power. They still meet the guidelines and they just saved a lot of money. While I do not doubt most receivers performance into two channels, multichannel operation leaves MUCH to be desired on many. Why can't we or shouldn't we expect that kind of performance less than a $1,000. Harman Kardon and NAD seem to have no troubles doing that whatsoever. Are they doing something different than everyone else? You bet, they are giving you the power you expected from the receiver. Exactly what it stated on the box literature, ect. Separate amplifiers are definitley a great alternative, and I do understand that they do outperform their "all in one" counterparts. However, is it so much to ask to get what is expected? Why does everyone think electronics amplifiers, wattage current draw, ect. is so difficult. (I x V)= Wattage, That was tough. (I meaning current in amperes V meaning voltage). The only broad generalization I used was efficency. Current consumtion specifications are much more tightly controlled than wattage. All amplifiers try to do the exact same thing amplifier a lesser signal without adding anything extra. Nearly all receivers are Class A/B (other than the digital path units). If one class A/B amp does something different than another, generally speaking, it is most likely a SMALL efficency difference. An amplifiers output is directly proportional to its current drawn. Show me an amplifier that disobeys this principle and I will buy it, as it just does not happen any other way. I do not trust manufacturer's specs that often either. However, there are certain things they have to be honest with and power consumtion is one of those. The last place you or I may look for specs may be the manufacturer, but many consumers take those specs as truth, unfortunately. That is why manufacturers need to be honest. Cheers! Do you Believe the Truth or Seek it. Annunaki Build Thread 1 The Beast, 12W7 Sealed build In-wall Sub Build Pythagoras Sub build Subwoofer Terminology Enclosure Calculator Reply With Quote 03-17-2004, 12:19 PM #120 Guest "Why then in reviews, is it not stated that the limiting circuitry kicked in, thus lowering the power output." It does actually refer to this in the "LAB NOTES" section at the end of the review.  I have also spoken with yamaha reps, and some of their engineers regarding this matter. I do agree that if not one is a newbie or not privy to all this "truth", that they are getting ripped off. I just don't let it bother me because I know joe-six-pack that picked up a sony unit from Best Buy and is pushing some cerwin vegas will never know the difference.  But yes, we should expect more from the "world rekown" companies we all gab about. best, Reply With Quote Page 12 of 16 First ... 21011121314 ... Last Jump to page: « Previous Thread | Next Thread » Posting Permissions You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts   BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On [VIDEO] code is On HTML code is On Trackbacks are On Pingbacks are On Refbacks are On Forum Rules -- Audio 2013 -- Default Mobile Style Audioholics.com Privacy Statement Top All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:46 AM. Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.0 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved. vBulletin Services by vbskinstudio.com Copyright 2013 AUDIOHOLICS, LLC

"Why then in reviews, is it not stated that the limiting circuitry kicked in, thus lowering the power output."

It does actually refer to this in the "LAB NOTES" section at the end of the review.  I have also spoken with yamaha reps, and some of their engineers regarding this matter.

I do agree that if not one is a newbie or not privy to all this "truth", that they are getting ripped off. I just don't let it bother me because I know joe-six-pack that picked up a sony unit from Best Buy and is pushing some cerwin vegas will never know the difference.  But yes, we should expect more from the "world rekown" companies we all gab about.

best,